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UAL Decision Soon Amid Worries/Questions

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Rarely do I respond but I have noticed that Ty has some unusual obsession with United.

I wonder why that is? Just click on his posts, the last 100 or so have been about United (oh, except for the one about him and his "partner") Why the fascination with UAL Ty? Try to keep it in perspective: United isn't alive, you can't hurt it! Displaced anger. Anyway, back to lurkersville for me, but I hope you find those gay beaches you're looking for ;)
 
WatchYourElbows]Rarely do I respond but I have noticed that Ty has some unusual obsession with United.

Hmmmm, I think a shrink could have a heyday with this one. I really could care less about United. You only notice my posts about UAL because they matter to you.

I actually write about many topics, and I have for the past 7 or 8 years on this board, in its various stages of evolution.

When some idiot starts spewing crap (such as calling all AirTran FO's, Jet Blue and AWA F/O's "whores") can you expect a response?

You Betcha.

Do I care about whether UAL makes it? No, not really. AirTran is doing just fine, with or without UAL . . . . you really don't matter to us at all. . . only to yourselves.

Have a nice life, OK?

TW
 
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Bad mojo to be proactively supporting the destruction of a legacy carrier like UAL. Most of the UA pilots I've met have been pretty cool folks. There's 1000's of employees that have invested their lives in the company. Even if I didn't agree with the ATSB guarantee I'd feel like an a.ss if I took the time to write my congressman encouraging denial of the gurantee. From what I've read UAL would have shown a profit if fuel costs were under control. Is it UAL's fault that Bush lied to us and went to war in Iraq? That's the real reason the economy is in the $hitter and oil is over $40/ barrel.
 
Pretty bad mojo to be calling your fellow pilots who are FO's for $60. an hour "whores", too.


Maybe Mr. Potrack needs a little Home Depot appreciation time to learn how the rest of the country lives.

I've done my time, thanks, in the last Great Aviation Depression in the early 1990's. The last thing I need is some douche bag slamming me because my career track doesn't meet his stupid expectations.




embdrvr said:
Bad mojo to be proactively supporting the destruction of a legacy carrier like UAL. Most of the UA pilots I've met have been pretty cool folks. There's 1000's of employees that have invested their lives in the company. Even if I didn't agree with the ATSB guarantee I'd feel like an a.ss if I took the time to write my congressman encouraging denial of the gurantee. From what I've read UAL would have shown a profit if fuel costs were under control. Is it UAL's fault that Bush lied to us and went to war in Iraq? That's the real reason the economy is in the $hitter and oil is over $40/ barrel.
 
Ty Webb said:
Do I care about whether UAL makes it? No, not really. AirTran is doing just fine, with or without UAL . . . . you really don't matter to us at all. . . only to yourselves.

Have a nice life, OK?

TW
Do you actually believe that?!? If you don't care about United, then why were your last 21 posts out of 25 about United? Obsession! (I didn't go back further than one page, it wasn't necessary.....all you basically post about is United) Did you cheer on 9/11 or just have a brew or two?
 
Ty Webb said:
Pretty bad mojo to be calling your fellow pilots who are FO's for $60. an hour "whores", too.


Maybe Mr. Potrack needs a little Home Depot appreciation time to learn how the rest of the country lives.

I've done my time, thanks, in the last Great Aviation Depression in the early 1990's. The last thing I need is some douche bag slamming me because my career track doesn't meet his stupid expectations.
I am very happy with the way things have worked out here for me, and those figures certainly don't describe the third year upgrade I will have.

Y'all have a good one now, y'hear?
 
Ty Webb said:
Pretty bad mojo to be calling your fellow pilots who are FO's for $60. an hour "whores", too.
I didn't call anyone a whore.
Sounds like you have sensitivity issue in that department though.
 
embdrvr said:
I didn't call anyone a whore.
Sounds like you have sensitivity issue in that department though.
Re-read the string. Potrack and NuGuy were calling AirTran, America West and Jet Blue pilots "whores".

Of course, they conveniently forget how they came by their jobs . . . be it PFT, being related to someone, kissing ass, whatever . . . . .

Anyway, I'm outta here. You guys have fun.
 
George Will thinks UAL should perish but says it won't

[font=verdana,geneva,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]George F. Will: Airline industry could benefit from reduction in capacity



By George F. Will
Published 2:15 am PDT Thursday, June 3, 2004

PHOENIX — Douglas Parker seems normal. But he runs an airline, America West, and is cheerful, so what does he not understand? Preternaturally optimistic, he thinks government policy will become more sensible, other events will cooperate and the airline industry, which is in the red since flight began at Kitty Hawk, will make money.

But not soon. Parker is optimistic, but not delusional.

The industry lost $15 billion in the last two years and probably will lose $5 billion in 2004. Jet fuel, now at a 13-year high, is more than 40 cents over the historic norm. Every penny increase costs the industry $180 million.

Yet antitrust worries caused the government to disapprove a merger of United and US Airways. How do you get a dangerous monopoly in such an industry? How would the public suffer from the merger of two of the nation's 13 major airlines — those with at least $1 billion in annual revenues — when both of them have 50 percent higher costs than Parker's airline?

Just 21 years old, America West is the only airline founded after deregulation that has made it to the status of a major carrier. Under the old regulatory regime, fare competition was minimal and labor costs were essentially the same industry-wide. Those costs were passed on to consumers, who had few choices — and no Internet to bring the choices to their fingertips. America West has market-based labor costs.

The Internet creates real market-driven fares. It allows airline seats to be treated as what they are, a perishable inventory: when a flight takes off, its empty seats are lost. The Internet makes possible the sale of some seats at declining prices as flight time approaches.

America West, based in this booming city, is thriving — more or less; relative to most other carriers — because most of its passengers' trips either originate or terminate in Phoenix or the only other American city booming as much, Las Vegas. America West, which depends less than other carriers on business travelers, is more insulated from business cycles. With just 150 planes and annual revenues of $2.5 billion (American Airlines, the largest carrier, has 730 planes and revenues of $17.4 billion), America West is the eighth largest. It has just one gate at Chicago's O'Hare airport. United, which is based in Chicago, has many gates and huge financial problems but is not selling any gates. There should be ongoing auctions of gates. However, airports, to insure their revenue streams, like to lease gates for 20 years.

The industry could benefit from a reduction of 20 percent of capacity, which is United's share. If this were not an election year, and if many United employees were not constituents of House Speaker Dennis Hastert, and if the government's response to 9/11 had not included establishment of the subsidy-dispensing Air Transportation Stabilization Board, United might be endangered.

Insecurity permeates the industry. American has cut annual costs by $4 billion — some employees' pay is down almost 25 percent and its fleet has been reduced from almost 900 planes before 9/11 to 730 — but it still has $25 billion of debt to service, its pension plans are $2.7 billion underfunded and its first quarter loss was $166 million.

Delta — first quarter loss: $387 million — had an $85-million pilots' pay raise come due last month and now experiences ruinous success: as passenger volume reaches pre-9/11 levels, it must rehire 1,060 pilots furloughed after 9/11. This will increase annual labor costs by about $115 million — not counting benefits.

This is, however, a sensational time for air travelers, thanks to the low-cost carriers that have sprung up in emulation of the original of that breed, Southwest, which has 393 737s, and almost 400 more on order. Last May was the first month in history when a discount airline, Southwest, carried more passengers than any other airline. Why do these low-cost airlines now carry 25 percent of air travelers, heading toward 40 percent next year? Consider:

US Airways, the seventh-largest carrier, spends 10 cents to fly a seat a mile, not counting fuel, while Southwest and America West spend roughly 6 cents. Philadelphia, the nation's fifth-largest city, is US Airways' biggest hub. But now Southwest has entered that market. So US Airways' unrestricted round tip fare to Providence has fallen from $938 to $177.

Parker says, reasonably, that there are "far too many" airlines. He will be pleased by the inevitable coming casualties — assuming, of course, that America West is not among them. But that is among the industry's multiplying and unsustainable uncertainties.

[/font]
 
George Will says that AWA is the only airline since deregulation to become a major . . . . AirTran revenues for 2004 will be above the $1 Bil. in revenues that currently define a major.
 
Of course AWA was one of the first airlines to apply for an ATSB loan and has already been through BK once. Perhaps Mr Will should note that a reduction in capacity would have already happened at Frontier and AWA if it were not for BK protections and in AWA's case and other LCCs an ATSB loan.
 
Ty is also partial to Home Depot for some reason. I was just on a trip and wound up having a "debriefing" with a couple of Airtran guys on a layover. Very down to earth fun guys to hang around with. What surprised me though was how much they complained about things. They laughed out loud when I told them I thought they spent their days off going to pep rallies. What it convinced me of is that Airtran's success will lead to labor showdowns in the future-- just like the legacy carriers. The entire cycle is bound to repeat.
 
Ty Webb said:
George Will says that AWA is the only airline since deregulation to become a major . . . . AirTran revenues for 2004 will be above the $1 Bil. in revenues that currently define a major.
Actually he said AWA is the only airline founded since deregulation to become a major. ATA's birth predates deregulation.
 
Actually, I hate Home Depot. Ever try to find something there that was actually made in the US? Good luck.

As for what you wrote regarding AirTran, there is a big difference between some of the former VJ guys' expectations and those of us who have hired since the merger.

While I don't think any of us expects Delta-like pay, I think we will be looking for something more like ATA's contract. Improvement in work rules and a tightening of the contract language will also be very important.

Regardless, you won't hear any "choke the last golden egg from the goose talk" from either group.
 
Actually he said AWA is the only airline founded since deregulation to become a major. ATA's birth predates deregulation.


I assumed someone else would point this out, but ATA is not AirTran. Two different airlines. ATA has been around for more than 30 years.
 
Say what?

FDJ2 said:
Perhaps Mr Will should note that a reduction in capacity would have already happened at Frontier and AWA if it were not for BK protections and in AWA's case and other LCCs an ATSB loan.
Frontier wanted a line of credit from ATSB in case UAL got their loan, but ATSB only would back a loan, so we took it. We paid it back IN FULL - taking a prepayment penalty in the process, and still owe warrents to the govt.

We were never close to cutting capacity. If UAL weren't able to price irrationally under BK protection we'd be MORE profitable and bigger. IMHO

Flame away....
 
GogglesPisano said:
Actually he said AWA is the only airline founded since deregulation to become a major. ATA's birth predates deregulation.
Disregard. Where's that delete button?
 
George Will may be right about the industry needing a reduction in capacity but it will never happen. As soon as someone goes away another one starts up to fill the oversaturated market. Welcome Virgin America and Mesa 737's.

It is gonna be funny when today's LCC pilots are called greedy by the next generation of pilots.
 
Ty Webb said:
Re-read the string. Potrack and NuGuy were calling AirTran, America West and Jet Blue pilots "whores".

Of course, they conveniently forget how they came by their jobs . . . be it PFT, being related to someone, kissing ass, whatever . . . . .

Anyway, I'm outta here. You guys have fun.
TY,

WTF are you talking about? Please post a quote from that message. I am sure I never said such a thing.

Best,
Nu
 
F9 Driver said:
Frontier wanted a line of credit from ATSB in case UAL got their loan, but ATSB only would back a loan, so we took it. We paid it back IN FULL - taking a prepayment penalty in the process, and still owe warrents to the govt.

We were never close to cutting capacity. If UAL weren't able to price irrationally under BK protection we'd be MORE profitable and bigger. IMHO

Flame away....
So it is bankrupt UAL's fault that Frontier is, relatively speaking, a weak perfroming LCC? If F9 is getting pinched a bit by TED's CASM being down somwhere in the ball park of F9's, imagine how bad the squeeze would be if you guys had to go head to head with say Richard Branson's boys in a post UAL world? Of course, Sir Richard would be having a field day after picking up a chunk of UAL's A-320 fleet for next to nothing. What I am saying is that if competeing against a bankrupt UAL is troublesome, there could be much worse things coming down the pipeline to worry about for a weaker LCC like F9.
 
Mugs said:
So it is bankrupt UAL's fault that Frontier is, relatively speaking, a weak perfroming LCC? If F9 is getting pinched a bit by TED's CASM being down somwhere in the ball park of F9's, imagine how bad the squeeze would be if you guys had to go head to head with say Richard Branson's boys in a post UAL world? Of course, Sir Richard would be having a field day after picking up a chunk of UAL's A-320 fleet for next to nothing. What I am saying is that if competeing against a bankrupt UAL is troublesome, there could be much worse things coming down the pipeline to worry about for a weaker LCC like F9.
No. I don't blame UAL for Frontier's 2004 profit Mugs. I just think that if UAL were forced to price their tickets to make a profit (or at least break even) in BK then we would be able to make some MORE money.

Don't speak of Ted's (thanks Enron disciples) CASM until you can show numbers to prove them. Tilton can't. So how can you?

I was just responding to FDJ2's assertion that we would have reduced capacity if not for the ATSB loan.
 
OK fine. Let's say then that TED's CASM is the same as mainline United. Then that speaks even more poorly for F9 getting pinched competing against a higher cost operator, BK or not. My point is how will you do competeing against an ultra low cost carrier that would undoubtedly gun for you in a post-UAL environment? They will be far more stripped down than the current UAL. By the way, are you expecting TED's fares to balloon if and when UAL exits BK? Given the lack of pricing power throughout the industry, I think that is very unlikely. UAL will match you, future competition will undercut you.
 
Hey Mugs,


I agree with you. Life for F9 would be worse without UAL at Denver.

I hope that UAL sticks around. Not just for F9's sake, but for my fellow pilots and workers there. I just take issue with how they are doing business.

I guess I'll just wait for the ATSB to come ask me. Don't worry I packed a lunch:)
 
NuGuy said:
TY,

WTF are you talking about? Please post a quote from that message. I am sure I never said such a thing.

Best,
Nu

Sorry, after reviewing the string, I see that it was Potrack, not you. My apologies.

It is not the bankrupt companies bringing us down, it is the guys that whore themselves out for 60 something an hour, are willing to waive FARs, deal with unsavory work rules, and have other airlines fail, just for...........the 'Love of being a pilot'

NuGuy.......I agree
 
"So it is bankrupt UAL's fault that Frontier is, relatively speaking, a weak perfroming LCC? What I am saying is that if competeing against a bankrupt UAL is troublesome, there could be much worse things coming down the pipeline to worry about for a weaker LCC like F9."

Mugs,

What do you refer to when describing F-9 as one of the weaker airlines? Is it that their market capitalization is one of the strongest in the inustry? That they have no debt except for their brand new "owned" A-319s? Or maybe they are the weakest because they are one of a handful of airlines that reportrd a profit last year. Is it because they are expanding by 40 percent this year? I have managed very large aviation companies in the past and I am at a loss for you characterization of F-9 being the weakest airline in the business. Can you help me out.

BTW, operating against a BK carrier is a big reason F-9 is not performing even better than they are now. BK carriers tend to operate like drunken sailors when it comes to pricing. I don't fault UA for doing this. BK is a very valuable business tool, unfortunately it is not very fair to the competition in the short term. I would much rather compete with SWA or Virgin than UA in BK, however, I would much rather compete with a non-BK UAL than anyone if they can emerge.
 

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