UAL? Contract agreement?

[SWA/FO]

What could UAL offer the mechanics to make them agree to a deal so fast?

"We just canceled your pension...but we are offering a .25 raise per hour across the board". I thought there was going to be a strike?

 

[Indy319FA]

Its easy. All that AMFA strike talk was a bunch of hot air. No wonder UAL management never took them seriously. UAL and Judge Wedoff told the AMFA to bend over and take it and they did. Hopefully the rank and file will have the guts to vote it down, but I doubt it. Kinda tough to vote yourself out of a job when you union leadership is not willing to stand up and make good on their threats. AMFA just lost a bunch of credibility with airline managments and will be seen as a paper tiger in the future.

 

[kelbill]

"Hopefully the rank and file will have the guts to vote it down, but I doubt it. Kinda tough to vote yourself out of a job when you union leadership is not willing to stand up and make good on their threats. AMFA just lost a bunch of credibility with airline managments and will be seen as a paper tiger in the future."

I'm no fan of most airline management, other than my own at SWA, but lets analyze the above highlights. In todays world, let alone the sick airline industry, I don't think it would be tough to vote yourself out of a job, I think it would be stupid. It doesn't matter about what happened last month or last year, or 4 years ago with 9/11. What matters now, UNLESS YOU HAVE ANOTHER JOB LINED UP, is what a strike would do for you AFTER UNITED GOES BELLY UP. Those strikers sure showed management at Eastern didn't they?

As far as a paper tiger in the future, realistically, if they strike, all they are going to be seeing are paper pink slips. I'm not telling folks to roll over and suck it up indefinitely, but if you think UAL or DAL/UAIR for that matter are joking about their financial situation, you are mistaken. They are all on life support, and a strike will be like pulling the plug. Even though all of this has been hell on employees, you are smoking crack if you think you will "Hurt" mgt if you strike. Most of the higher ups who make/made the bad decisions are well off financially and will get another job soon. Plus, I'm sure they hate their jobs currently, as even though they are "King" of the company, the kingdom is in shambles. Wait out the storm, and hope some other firm's employees pull the plug on themselves.

 

[AMRCostUnit]

There will be a large number of mechs getting a pink slip anyway because they want to outsource heavy MX to the Far East. They must have some kind of large severance for those gettting the boot. It's one thing to vote yourself out of a job but to vote yourself out of six months or a years pay if your getting cut anyway...? Time will tell...and you have the FA's too. Never underestimate the FA's...Crandall did in the 90's and it was costly...

Unit

 

[Boeingman]

Did anyone notice that rhetoric went from "If the judge takes the pensions we walk, to this new tentative agreement"? Zero credibility. Management must be thrilled how they handled this. Although I did read where the IAM said a strike is still possible after a UAL exec said management may consider the judges ruling on the contract. i.e. if we get a better deal from the court we'll take that one.

 

[Indy319FA]

"If the judge takes the pensions we walk, to this new tentative agreement"?

My point exactly. AMFA was making some pretty bold statements over the last couple of weeks and dared UAL management to cross a line in the sand. Well, UAL management threatened to cross the line and AMFA did them a favor by giving them everything they wanted and erased the line. Glenn Tilton must be laughing his ass off right now. Don't expect the FAs or the CSAs to fight on now that both the mechanics and pilots have given UAL management what they want. The only two groups that really have the power to shut an airline down are pilots and mechanics and now that UAL managment has them cowering in the corner, don't expect anybody else to fight their demands either.

 

[labbats]

Did anyone on here honestly think anyone at UAL would strike?

 

[SWA/FO]

Yes, I did.... for awhile. Now it appears all they needed was a few days to talk it over. Now everyone is as happy as they can be, I guess?

 

[Big Duke Six]

FWIW, I think the FA's are just as capable of shutting down the airline as the pilots or mechanics are. You can't fly without any of them, and you can't just train up ten or twenty thousand FA's, can you? Even a week or two of not flying would kill the company.

I sure thought someone would strike. I think someone NEEDS to strike. As far as I know, the FA's latest dispute is over Mgm't refusal to turn over documents showing what paycuts Mgmt has taken, since they indeed claim they have taken some. If I worked there, I would not trust Mgmt any farther than I could throw them so I, too, would like to see it on paper.

I know I'm naive and idealistic, but I don't think a Mgmt team that treats its employees the way UAL's has (i.e. without taking some of the pain too) deserves to keep their jobs either. Although it would mean losing their jobs, I think someone needs to strike. The message needs to be sent, both to the inside of this godforsaken industry and to the outside. And yes, I know that the Mgrs would all walk away with some sort of golden parachute, but this practice needs to be stopped. It's like a cancer, and it will spread if it's not killed NOW. It's not a question of IF, but rather of WHEN. The remaining legacy airlines will all HAVE to follow suit to "stay competitive". Well, guess what, this way of "doing business" will rapidly propagate to other industries all across the country. Fifty years from now, all the kids in business school will study these events unfolding before our eyes and will see them as one of the great turning points in American business. And by "great" I don't mean good.

So yes, a line needs to be drawn, even if it would be posthumously.

 

[Boeingman]

The F/A's can shut down UAL down. I think management is getting comfortable though since they have gotten everything they wanted from all the groups. All they have had to tolerate is some bad pr and lousy morale. That is not enough to stop them from pushing to drive wages and benefits even lower. It will not end here.

Has anyone seen their business plan yet? Or have we been viewing it all along?

 

[doh]

We've been viewing it all along! SIGH!

 

[skykid]

So yes, a line needs to be drawn, even if it would be posthumously.

You wouldn't conveniently work for one of United's competitors, would you? We are going to see the legacy airlines continue to change their structure and business model to look more like the LCCs. Why would an LCC employee take exception to this? I can see B-Man saying, "oh boy, now my pension is gone even faster," because he is right. Doesn't exactly fit for others.

It's absolutely brutal what's happening - no question about it. UAL mgt can either go through this process or close the doors. There is no other option. Reasoning with the pilots over the situation worked. The mechanics wouldn't even take a pay cut after 9/11 and before Ch11. I would like mgt to work for free. The reality is that is not the way it works and you get what you pay for.

Obviously the business plan was to maintain the route structure (everybody thought or hoped United would abandon a major hub like Denver or DC) while trimming costs. Instead of Ted falling flat like you hoped, it has expanded. Over 50% of rev from international flying and 25% from Asia, that's the big story. All had to be done with service and reliabilty improving - look for yourself at the monthly ratings.

Of course the FAs can shut the airline down. I would suspect another labor group would act sooner. Keep hoping for the worst if you want, it is not over yet.

 

[Big Duke Six]

Whoa, big fella. Not once in my post did I ever say I hoped United would go out of business. If that's what you got from it, I apologize. Yes, I work for a competitor (we're all competitors, though aren't we?) but I have said all along (in other posts) I hoped UAL would make it.


What I WAS trying to say was that since mgmt there has basically sacrificed everything they could (i.e. the futures of each and every employee) trying to "save" the airline, and yet have continued to take bonuses for themselves, that I thought someone there should draw the line. Oh, but you defend that and call that good mgmt? OK, fine. Maybe if you guys sacrificed even MORE they could get even bigger bonuses for themselves. Then they could maybe talk you into paying a monthly fee to the company once you retire. Now, those would be some GOOD managers, I tell ya. Those kind of guys are very expensive though, and they're hard to find.

Gimme a break!!!!!

I was just stating my opinion that I don't think a sick group of managers like that should be allowed to keep their jobs. The only way you guys can get them out there is to close the doors. It's called a "principle". Have you heard the term before? I know it doesn't buy very much at the store, but they are sometimes worth fighting for. Why are you guys not holding mgmt's feet to the fire, demanding they take cuts alongside you? That's all I'm wondering. I'm all about teamwork, and in my opinion you lead by example. They're not leading. They are screwing you guys. Maybe I'm wrong and they have sacrificed, but I know that recently I read some group of managers there collectively took home $30 million dollars in bonuses. But hey, they are good managers in your opinion, and would be better if only you could pay them more. Ok buddy, keep drinking the Kool Aid.

I think your argument is easily defused if you just look around the industry at some of the truly GREAT managers, and you may be surprised to see what they make. Salary doesn't make a good manager. Integrity does.

 

[skykid]

Oh, but you defend that and call that good mgmt?

But hey, they are good managers in your opinion, and would be better if only you could pay them more. Ok buddy, keep drinking the Kool Aid.

Maybe you could read my post and show me where I was praising the compensation of mgt. Good luck. You are implying things I never said. What I wrote was:

I would like mgt to work for free. The reality is that is not the way it works and you get what you pay for.

What part of having them work for free means I would like to see them get paid more? Everyone at United, including Tilton, has taken pay cuts. There is a program at United called Success Sharing, by which ALL employees have a chance at bonuses based on performance. I happen to agree that ths program is critical to future success and you have to attempt to change the mindsets around here even in Ch11. Extra pay based on achieving goals is a great way to start. It would have been great PR for upper mgt to turn their bonuses back in for solidarity - of course I'm critical that they didn't. I would also like them to dump whatever golden parachute pension deal they have.

The reality is United had to pay Tilton to leave his job and come take a shot. Sure, I wish he would have done it for free as I said before and you ignored but that is not reality. In my opinion, the facts show the current upper mgt, who took the helm from shortsighted fools, has made the best of a terrible jam. There is no easy fix, and these guys have made the tough decisions.

 

[Big Duke Six]

You're correct, I did take your statement "you get what you pay for" to mean that you're satisfied with what your current mgmt team is taking home in pay and bonuses. My apologies - I see now that mgmt bonuses are paid if certain "goals" are met. But did it ever occur to you that a goal of mgmt might be the complete rape and destruction of employee pay and benefits, while simultaneously preserving their own outlandish compensation? To see how far you guys will bend before you break? Doesn't it bother you that people are getting paid extra to see that you take home less and work more? These are rhetorical questions. I'm sure the lawyer who convinced the judge to let the PBGC take over your pensions got a huge bonus too. Good work, barrister. Let's not forget the bonus the judge got too.

I'm sure there are efficiencies to be found, for sure. Don't get me wrong. I just have a problem with mgmt GETTING some of the money they pulled out of labor's pocket. That's just wrong. Nobody should be profiting from these cuts. They may be "tough" decisions as you assert, but the only ones suffering from them is labor.

So, by way of starting over, do the average employees there feel that mgmt is on their side, that the pain is truly being shared by all? From what I know, nobody really knows because they have refused to disclose documents showing the cuts they've taken. That brings me back to my original post, and you haven't given me anything to show me otherwise. Like I said before, if they really ARE giving back, like you guys are, then great. I just haven't seen anything that says they have. A few weeks ago, the FA's were ready to rescind their last contract over this. So, what happened?