UAL and Mesa Reach Agreement

[climbhappy]

kingairkiddo.....

you imply it is still mesa pilots who threaten your job. Listen, a company,any company with a cost advantage can and will in free markets price their work to get the business. I'm sorry it's to your detriment. too many pilots, misinformed at best, think union philosophy should carry over to the street.

You're probably unaware that our country had a 435 billion trade deficit. know why? us labor cost too much.... Now , as it relates to flying, the lawyers and creditors are your threat....a real one!

If you think a pilot group , such as mesa is the reason your losing business, i think you're wrong..

as for bad metaphors...referring to what we've done as "walmart wages and working for free at mickey's d", well, the strength of you case and your point go out the window when you resort to pure nonsensical remarks.

you explained your point nicely in the latter post, however, i think the shakeout is only just beginning..

 

[KingAirKiddo]

We'll have to agree to disagree...

Climbhappy,

First of all, my apologies for my first post on this thread. I can see that it might be interpreted as being inflammatory and offensive. It was more a hot-headed reaction to UEX carriers being compared to greedy monkeys trying to eat their rice with the pygmy hunter on the prowl (another case of bad analogies, although I cannot take the credit this time ) I've had some time to cool off a bit.

My only point is that if your group would at least achieve parity in your contract negotiations with other small jet operators (ASA, Comair, ACA, Air Whiskey, and Skywest), then Mesa management would be forced to present contract bids that are more in line with the current market. You guys are in a position to continue raising the regional standard. If this TA passes, the management at other carriers will be in a position to say effectively, "well gosh guys, Mesa operates under these terms, so why shouldn't you." It will be the equivalent of stepping back in time.

I still think that if the bid had not been presented to UAL management and creditors committee in its current form we would not be having this discussion. I don't know if you read the slide show from UAL management that was presented to the creditors committee. One of the objectives listed in the turn around plan was to re-negotiate terms with UEX carriers to make the contracts "competitive" with other bidders. How is this not creating a whipsaw effect and lowering the industry standard? True, the ultimatum is from UAL management, but it was created on the premise that other "undisclosed" carriers were willing to work for much less. The Mesa and CHQ bid effectively fueled the fire.

I realize that it's a messy situation all the way around. You guys are in a precarious position right now, but please recognize that if you are unified in your approach you can accomplish something right now, this time around. This would put the burden on other carriers to do the same, and create a regional industry in which we can make a career and actually retire from. I think that the question you guys should be asking is, "can I make flying for Mesa a career?" and "can I retire happily and comfortably from Mesa?" If the answers are no, then please take the initiative to change the situation so that your answers can be yes to both questions. Please don't assume in your negotiations that you won't be there for a career, because that is the type of mindset that will keep wages and working conditions in the bottom of the barrel. Let's face it...the major airline opportunities are disappearing rapidly and the majority of us will probably be spending a career in regionals, nationals, fractionals, etc. Let's make sure that we're receiving the best possible compensation that the industry and market can bear.

Anyways, best of luck in your negotiations and my apologies once again for the hot-headed posts.

Later.

 

[climbhappy]

kingairkiddo.....furthermore

I appreciate your position and the point is well made.

i am convinced that in the nineties two dynamics were at work. the high trunover at the regionals caused and incredibly high number of training events. those costs alone could fund a lucrative pilots retirement plan. today the destabilizing effect of the downturn and the global terro thing do two things. first, wages have some downward pressure. i think since american,continental, delta, and northwest all have publicly said they expect more concessions from pilots. they have bankruptsy lawyers . they even think they are at a cost disadvantage to united and usair.

Imagine having your house payment suspended for six to twelve months or even lowered 25 to 50 percent. to me, it's downward pressure. but back to my earlier point, if training events are reduced substantially, and the bottom is reached there is no where to go but up. and while we're on the way up, realizing this may be my last stop, i then become proactive and enlist other pilots to join in to get those better rules.

finally, if us air and their pilot group would have seen the advantage of using regionals and funded them, we might not be having this conversation.

 

[Beantown]

If this TA passes, the management at other carriers will be in a position to say effectively, "well gosh guys, Mesa operates under these terms, so why shouldn't you."

Again, I don't understand this line of thinking. How come when ACA and Air Wisky were negoatiating there contract a few years back Mgmt didn't bring the Mesa (or TSA, CHQ, Eagle, Pinnnacle) contract(s) up in these terms? If not then, why now? -Bean

 

[KingAirKiddo]

Beantown,

Because with a poor economy and a steady supply of pilots wanting to work, management is in a position to call the shots now. That wasn't the case pre-recession and pre-9/11.

KAK

 

[Speedtree]

You Mesa guys make it sound like it's not your fault. You guys are a disgrace to the industry if you think your attitudes toward contracts and business deals aren't hurting everyone. UAL makes money off of AWAC, Skywest, and ACA. We aren't hurting their bottom line one bit.

Yet you continue to say that it's all a matter of what the industry can handle and it's supply and demand. Whatever. That is true to a point but we are highly trained professionals and demand better than what you guys are accepting. That's what the unions were created for in the first place. If you don't fight for something why have a union in the first place. Dump ALPA and save yourselves the union dues. You can't be much worse off. If you can't see that being a pilot is more than just a cool way to pick up chicks at the bar so be it. We have day labor in Houston that makes more money and has more time off than what your new TA gives you. And if I had it all to do over again, hey I would chosse that over working at Mesa. It's companies like AWAC and Comair that make the regionals a great place to be. And the industry can handle it.

 

[g159av8tor]

"you imply it is still mesa pilots who threaten your job. Listen, a company,any company with a cost advantage can and will in free markets price their work to get the business."

Unfortunately, the Mesa cost advantage is not management's business savvy, it's their ability to out-smart their pilot group and pay them well below current industry standards. In return what will you receive? What about the big picture--the Profession?

And what will become of the regional industry if the big three foreclose the farm (they really can't buy it)? Nobody really knows. What will happen if you guys sell out? We ALL know, in 5 years we'll all be flying 70+ seat RJs for today's 50 seat wage at best. But, we WILL be flying 70 and 90 seat RJs! I guess that is something to look forward to.

Tailwinds...

 

[CRJ Driver]

Whats this "we" $hit, the only people dumb enough to fly 70 seat RJ's for 50 seat pay would be mesa.

 

[climbhappy]

speedtree and g150av8tr

speedtree... you said we're a disgrace etc,etc..... and we're hurting the industry etc

two things, do you have any proof? second, again, united voting themselves a thirty percent pay raise in a recession, summer 2001, when midway filed for ch 11 after a huge drop in biz travel, was pure wrecklessness..... it's that kind of wreckless disregard for the realiites of modern business forces and factors that has two major carriers in bk

us air failed to see the role of the rj, they had thirteen different aircraft types in 2000 and their pilots were paid as good as the big three..... result- cost that couldn't support revenue in a downturn, result ... BK

you toss out innuendo, but cant support your argument

g159av8tr, you said mesa mgt outsmarted us. it's clear many of you have listened to older pilots whose malice toward a pilot group spreads as quick as the gossip at a georgia country club women's bridge game.


i won't insult you, just debate you, i think you're misinformed.
one point, when i was at cc air, the older guys confused union membership with stock ownership, it's not the same thing.

got to go, got to work !

 

[WileE]

What is that?

What is the industry standard 50 seat pay? What is the industry standard 70 seat pay? Has anyone set that? No, they haven't. Should ALPA have fought for same pay for the same equipment regardless of airline? Sure they should have done that a long time ago with every contract that ever came up in the past, but they didn't. Stop trying to make us out as the ones who should draw the line in the sand and become martyrs for the rest of you. If your last contract wasn't industry leading, why did you accept it? If your company is talking pay concessions, why aren't you out on strike right now? If your scope lets them start alter ego carriers or contract out your flying, why aren't you on strike right now for a scope that will keep them from doing that?

Me I feel that between 60 and 80 grand is fine for a CA position on that jet. It's not great but you can live just fine on that if you don't have two mercedes in the garage and 3 alimony payments. How much is job security worth to you? 5 grand? Maybe 10 grand? Are you willing to sacrifice anything to guarantee you a job for 5 more years? is making a more than decent wage for 90% of the rest of the americans out there not good enough or do you need to be rolling in dough to be happy?

Sure it's not a good wage compared to the wages people negotiated pre-recession and before the collapse of the airline industry. I would love to be negotiating in that same environment as that. But those are the same folks taking massive concessions now or getting their companies shut down. Our MEC decided to pick its fight and it chose job security over transient pay increases. Those are just dandy if they can send your flying to some other carrier and put you on the street on a whim, as a lot of you are figuring out.

If you aren't in contract negotiations in this environment, stop trying to dictate what those of us who are should be doing. This company has gone from a nowhere company flying only props out of NM to a national in just 5 and a half years. Our pilot group hasn't had a dozen contracts in good times to work up to industry leading pay status, we've had one before this current TA. We are putting ourselves in position to take that leap next time if we don't shoot ourselves in the foot right now for a fantasy of getting it all tomorrow.

 

[g159av8tor]

[because they're not in our shoes and regardless of how informed they believe they are, don't have all the facts. I do, and intend to vote no with a clear conscience. But it is not an easy decision and JO's history does not lend itself to the theory that we can just bring him to his knees with a simple rejection of this TA. [/B]

You're right, JO in an a$$h0le and one tough SOB. You're also right that I'm not in your shoes, not yet. And that is my point. We as pilots are labor, cost in dollars and cents to management, nothing more, probably less. No, I don't ahve all the facts, but I am intelligent to differeniate well enough (most of the time) between fact and fiction from TV, the papers, union mags and various web boards.

I know this, all airlines operate similarly and have a unanimously daunting view of pilots. I havn't been in the airline business for long, but I think I have a sound understanding of the pendulum. As airline history has demonstrated and others have commented, management sticks it to us in ecnomic downturns for various reasons. Mainly, it is my opinion few people in this world can run an airline efficiently to make money in the best of times so when the sh1t hits the fan, well, we all know the consequences.

I'm almost to my point and nearly finished building my case.

Contract "standards" are fluid and move with the economic pendulum. We pilots, at our respective airlines, made great gains in the mid and late 1990s when the majority of today's regional pilots were not yet in the industry (including myself). Most of us have only experienced the fat times and are totally unprepared to battle the struggle ahead.

Now, I'm not going to call you the "scum of the airline pilot profession" and I'm not going to embrace you as my "union brother" either. Yet, I can't deny that my profession-our profession-my airline's contract, your airline's contract and my job as well as your job are all interdependent. It all flows both ways.

I understand why your POed at others' comments on this board. We don't need to relive it. Instead, we need to support each other because we do in fact all support each other as codependent as our relationship is at times. You guys are worth more than the current TA and definately worth more than the pawns and sacrificial lambs you're made to be in ALPA's sordid bargaining game. You've got my support. What needs to be done next?

Tailwinds...

 

[KingAirKiddo]

Climbhappy,

I really don't understand how the UAL and USAir analysis you presented relates to the current discussion about contracts in the regional industry. Yes, the labor groups in those cases made huge "gains" that were unsustainable when the economy went south, and as a result huge concessions are needed at this time. However, it's comparing apples to oranges (I'll have to stick to cliche metaphors for the time being...you've made me paranoid about going out on the limb too far ) The regional industry is profitable...Johnny O. could raise your wages without sacrificing margins simply by submitting contract bids that are more on par with the rest of the industry. The only thing that the current contracts do is make JO and his buddies wealthier at the pilot group's expense.

Hud,

I do appreciate the precarious position that you guys are in. Thank you very much for your NO vote. Bottom line guys is that you are worth much more, and that TA is an insult to you...forget what anybody else thinks for a moment. You have all spent thousands of dollars and worked hard to get the 121 job and you should be fairly compensated for your efforts. I hope the rest of MAG pilots toss that thing out with the rest of the garbage. Best of luck to all of you.

 

[KingAirKiddo]

Climbhappy,

I really don't understand how the UAL and USAir analysis you presented relates to the current discussion about contracts in the regional industry. Yes, the labor groups in those cases made huge "gains" that were unsustainable when the economy went south, and as a result huge concessions are needed at this time. However, it's comparing apples to oranges (I'll have to stick to cliche metaphors for the time being...you've made me paranoid about going out on the limb too far ) The regional industry is profitable...Johnny O. could raise your wages without sacrificing margins simply by submitting contract bids that are more on par with the rest of the industry. The only thing that the current contracts do is make JO and his buddies wealthier at the pilot group's expense.

Hud,

I do appreciate the precarious position that you guys are in. Thank you very much for your NO vote. Bottom line guys is that you are worth much more, and that TA is an insult to you...forget what anybody else thinks for a moment. You have all spent thousands of dollars and worked hard to get the 121 job and you should be fairly compensated for your efforts. I hope the rest of MAG pilots toss that thing out with the rest of the garbage. Best of luck to all of you.

 

[jetflyer]

Vote NO!

 

[dogg]

As it relates to what 50 or 70 seat RJ captains should make: Have any of the MEC groups or for that matter have any of the mgmt. groups involved provided hard numbers for the costs related to the 50/70/90 seat RJ's. Such as hourly operating costs ( fuel, maint., crew) and other costs such as ownership or lease costs. It seems like this is the kind of intel that will be needed to make sure a fair deal is being worked on and not some fairy tale.