UAL and Mesa Reach Agreement

[WSurf]

Get ready boys (UAX), we at PDT have watched Mesa screw up flights out of CLT. Cx flights here and they but they brag about a 90% completion factor. Thats because they will run a flight 3 hrs late with no pax on board, just to complete it and get paid by US Airways. PDT Gate agents refer to Mesa as (Mx Every Single A/C). Those ERJ's are new wait till they get some years on them. There service is terrible, they Pilot Contract is bad, and the new TA they will sign will bring the industry back 10 years.
Eg. No flight numbers, but in CLT last week we had freezing rain. Many a/c were told to hold there push because the De Ice Pad was backed up. Remember there pilots get paid only Segment pay. After they were told to hold there push three times, they all the sudden said they were neg. on the Deice and allowed to taxi and take off. I know its a PIC Call, but when you are getting only Segment pay I think it is a factor in the process. Anyway to Mesa 2 flights did that! At the deice pad about 10 Dashs and 1 ERJ, and the plane in front of us still had Ice on its tail that we could see. I am sure I am gonna get some Neg. feed back, but all I am saying is that if you are paid Block or better you will have a much easier time on working out these situtions they sitting in the A/C going. (Crap we arent getting Paid right now)

 

[got_jumpseat?]

Are you trying to equate the UAL-Mesa agreement and the impact it has on UEX carriers to a Faces of Death video? Are you saying those "hanging" are "monkeys with a fist full of rice"? Is our "rice" our jobs? Is Mesa the Pygmy hunter? Are you saying we should give up our "rice" to save our UEX lives from the Pygmy hunter known as Mesa?

No what I am saying is the BK court is not going to let you keep those FAT UAL contracts no matter what, if you let go of them Mesa the pygmy hunter would have to look elsewhere for a meal. Thats all.

Being the lowest possible bidder is nothing to be proud of, but in this day and age if thats what its going to take to keep working, it is better than selling cars or flipping burgers.

 

[got_jumpseat?]

Yes DHC8's are the only airliners capable of having a birdstrike from behind. The doorknobs if anything are fast little suckers. I know the Brazilias are the real troublemakers in summer.

Got Jumpseat, I am assuming you have never flown a Doinker (D328). If you had, you wouldn't lump it in the same category as the E120. It's not even a comparison. The worst restriction I ever had on the Doinker (temperature related...not fuel) was 27 people. It has to get VERY hot out for a 328 to get restricted to 15 people. At that point all the RJs are restricted too. The Dash does a bit better than the 328 as far as weight restrictions go in the summer time. Unfortunately Piper Tomahawks cruise faster than it. On a side note, have you seen the dog and pony show at the Mesa gates when flights are cancelled "all the time". Maybe Frontier will "broom" you guys.

 

[CRJ Driver]

Hanging? C' mon. Ever see "Faces of Death"? remember the monkey with a fistfull of rice in the tree hole? The pygmy hunter just walks up to him and pops him on the head with his club and fresh monkey meat. All the monkey had to do was let go of the rice he could have run away with his life. The monkey is so greedy he cant let go of the rice even though he sees the hunter walking right up to him.

Speculation? Ill tell you exactly why. Have you ever seen the dog and pony show at the DEN United Express gates in Summertime? It seems like all the Doorknobs and Brazilias are weight restricted down to 15 or 16 people sometimes. May as well run a Beech on the flight but Lakes cant figure out how to get more than 12 people on a beech in the summer. It gets to be such a monkey poo fling fest i'd rather walk back to Farmington.

Now the DHC8200 is a mountain airplane. Doing our part to save United now. It was our flying to begin with wasn't it so dont even go there. Yeah United fired us for what, Great Mistakes? They got broomed too.

Mesa does run around like two monkeys fuc&ing a football sometimes maybe one day they will figure it out. Mesa is still young, I know airlines 75 years old that still have growing pains.

The moral of the story is don't be a fuc&ing monkey.

Its very apperent, you dont know anything about the DO328, in the summer it was weight restricted for driftdown not climb limited the highest airport was DRO. On the hotest day in the summer out of DRO we could fill every seat and take 30 bags, lets see the E120 do that!! As far as Mesa saving UAL what a joke.
I guess you were not around in 98' when mesa got KICKED out of DEN because of VERY BAD SERVICE, and Air Wisconsin took over.


Put the crack pipe down dude!

 

[KingAirKiddo]

Got_Jumpseat?

You said, "no what I'm saying is the BK court is not going to let you keep those FAT UAL contracts, no matter what, if you let go of them Mesa the pygmy hunter would have to look elsewhere for a meal. Thats all. Being the lowest possible bidder is nothing to be proud of, but in this day and age if that's what going to take to keep working, it is better than selling cars or flipping burgers."
___________________________________________________

Perhaps if the "pygmy hunter" was hunting in season and not poaching, we wouldn't be having this discussion. In other words, the only reason that Mesa Air Group is able to underbid everybody else is because you, as a pilot group, have agreed to work for less than industry standard. I understand the difficult position that you found yourselves in during the most recent negotiations given the whole CCAir/Freedom fiasco. I also feel that you brought a lot of that mess on through your inaction during previous negotiations. As a result, you have unknowingly lowered the bar for the rest of the regional pilots and created a whipsaw effect that will no doubt ripple through the rest of the industry, as evidenced by the current UAL/UEX negotiations.

The first part of my post might seem a bit harsh. I don't hold a personal grudge against you or any other Mesa pilots, or any pilot group for that matter. I know that on a daily basis we all do the same job, but let's take some pride in what we do. Assuming that this TA passes, you guys will have a few years to get ready for the next contract. PPPLLEEAASSEE do it right next time. Show Jonny O. and the rest of the sleazeballs that you are not the equivalent of a prostitute willing to accept anything in order to keep flying. The regional industry is where a lot of our futures be, given the changing nature of the airline industry. Let's make sure we're ALL doing our part to make it a viable option for the long term. Otherwise, we all might just as well work full time at Mickey D's and fly our RJ's for free because "they're cool".

 

[climbhappy]

kingairkiddo....bipolar maybe?

first , you blame the mesa guys for accepting below standard wages and put the entire burden of the current industry on their shoulders....

what a lame, uniformed, biased, "let's get on the bash Mesa train" express.. statement!

Oh, and then you recant your diatribe, only to say," hey I want to be your friend.... and next time show Johnny O who's boss... WOW!

Finally, you say we'll all end up flying for free and working at Mickey D's... your use of metaphors sucks.....


REALITY CHECK! Comair strike was the landmark case of pilot vs mgt......

REALITY CHECK! 2 majors in bk, both could fail ( US air due to pension troubles, United due to lack of labor concessions.. three more majors likely to seek ch 11 protection....( DAL,AA,CAL) they all have bk lawyers on payroll

Isn't it United , Mr. Kingairkiddo, and not Mesa who is to blame for selecting the lower cost vendor..... isn't it there fault even though a bankruptsy judge sits with a gavel as well as the creditors who are actually in control of the company right now..
It's called debtor in possession , but creditors have to bless everything...

THE REALITY IS SIR, these lawyers are determining the future events and not the pilot group at Mesa.... get it right next time

 

[KingAirKiddo]

Bipolar. Now that's funny.

Look, maybe it was late and maybe I was just a bit cranky. The bottom line, sir, is that I'm potentially facing the loss of my job and being out on the street with thousands of other pilots because a.)there's a chance that UAL will liquidate, leaving UAL and UEX pilots out to dry b.)as though that's not enough, we're faced with bids from "undisclosed carriers" for UEX service which is being used to whipsaw us around. Yes, I understand that UAL makes the decision regarding UEX service. The problem is that your bid is so outrageously low that it makes it nearly impossible to compete without HUGE concessions, and it's not like we were talking about six figures to begin with. UAL would not have this option if your pilot group had been minding the store during previous negotiations (and no the burden for the entire industry is not on your shoulders--you just happen to be the biggest threat to my continued financial and personal well being for the short term, so from that vantage I'll admit that it is "pick on Mesa day").

I realize that UAL is in a perilous position right now, but a lowball bid on regional service is simply a cost cutting initiative that allows UAL management to say "gee we saved some money" instead of addressing the problems facing the company and finding real solutions to those problems. I think we as UEX carriers do have a responsibility to do what we can to help, but I don't think we should have to work for Wal-Mart wages just to be competitive either. If this is not the case at Mesa, then please enlighten me. Please reference the portions of your contract that address hourly wage, cancellation pay for wx and mx, days off, etc. If Mesa is able to provide the lowest bid based on other factors, then please share those, too.

No, I don't really care if you're a friend or not. I was simply stating that we all do the same job. I hold no resentment toward you and would never treat a Mesa pilot badly in the terminal or on the jumpseat or whatever. Period.

Now, as for the bad use of metaphors thing. You may be right about that. Fortunately for me, I was not an English major in college and do not make my living looking for grammatical errors in text. Therefore, it falls under the category of "I don't really care".

Later.

 

[RJPilott]

Being the lowest possible bidder is nothing to be proud of, but in this day and age if thats what its going to take to keep working, it is better than selling cars or flipping burgers.

I just looked at your TA summary and payscales over on the other thread. 8 days off? 1.15 per diem? Our 2nd year J41 FO's make more than your 7th yr Jet FO's above 76 seats! "Controllable CX" pay? You gotta be kidding. I would MUCH rather sell cars, fly some light twins for my "fix", live in a nice place and be home everynight than bust my a$$, live in a 2 bedroom apt with 3 to a room eating Ramen noodles for 4 years with a contract like that. I certainly hope you guys vote no. I sold cars in the early-mid 90's, i will gladly do it again if some idiot thinks I'll fly for free. I'd much rather rent out a nice light twin (even a nice 152) every once in a while on my terms with money in my pocket and a decent dinner everynight at home. Its better than being a whore. If you feel whoring yourself out just to fly is better than looking for respectable work elsewhere while fullfilling your love of flight, then perhaps you can work for me one day....

 

[j41driver]

Re: Got_Jumpseat?

Assuming that this TA passes, you guys will have a few years to get ready for the next contract. PPPLLEEAASSEE do it right next time.

Hey, how about this....

Vote NO on the TA and do it right THIS time.

 

[KingAirKiddo]

That would be better...

I was working under the assumption that the TA would pass, as reported by some on this board. If got_jumpseat and climbhappy represent the mindset of the majority of Mesa pilots, then I think it will pass.

Doing it right this time WOULD be the better solution.

Of course what do I know; I'm supposedly bipolar and fly for a greedy airline with a "FAT UAL contract" and God forbid, I use bad metaphors in my posts.

Later.

 

[climbhappy]

kingairkiddo.....

you imply it is still mesa pilots who threaten your job. Listen, a company,any company with a cost advantage can and will in free markets price their work to get the business. I'm sorry it's to your detriment. too many pilots, misinformed at best, think union philosophy should carry over to the street.

You're probably unaware that our country had a 435 billion trade deficit. know why? us labor cost too much.... Now , as it relates to flying, the lawyers and creditors are your threat....a real one!

If you think a pilot group , such as mesa is the reason your losing business, i think you're wrong..

as for bad metaphors...referring to what we've done as "walmart wages and working for free at mickey's d", well, the strength of you case and your point go out the window when you resort to pure nonsensical remarks.

you explained your point nicely in the latter post, however, i think the shakeout is only just beginning..

 

[KingAirKiddo]

We'll have to agree to disagree...

Climbhappy,

First of all, my apologies for my first post on this thread. I can see that it might be interpreted as being inflammatory and offensive. It was more a hot-headed reaction to UEX carriers being compared to greedy monkeys trying to eat their rice with the pygmy hunter on the prowl (another case of bad analogies, although I cannot take the credit this time ) I've had some time to cool off a bit.

My only point is that if your group would at least achieve parity in your contract negotiations with other small jet operators (ASA, Comair, ACA, Air Whiskey, and Skywest), then Mesa management would be forced to present contract bids that are more in line with the current market. You guys are in a position to continue raising the regional standard. If this TA passes, the management at other carriers will be in a position to say effectively, "well gosh guys, Mesa operates under these terms, so why shouldn't you." It will be the equivalent of stepping back in time.

I still think that if the bid had not been presented to UAL management and creditors committee in its current form we would not be having this discussion. I don't know if you read the slide show from UAL management that was presented to the creditors committee. One of the objectives listed in the turn around plan was to re-negotiate terms with UEX carriers to make the contracts "competitive" with other bidders. How is this not creating a whipsaw effect and lowering the industry standard? True, the ultimatum is from UAL management, but it was created on the premise that other "undisclosed" carriers were willing to work for much less. The Mesa and CHQ bid effectively fueled the fire.

I realize that it's a messy situation all the way around. You guys are in a precarious position right now, but please recognize that if you are unified in your approach you can accomplish something right now, this time around. This would put the burden on other carriers to do the same, and create a regional industry in which we can make a career and actually retire from. I think that the question you guys should be asking is, "can I make flying for Mesa a career?" and "can I retire happily and comfortably from Mesa?" If the answers are no, then please take the initiative to change the situation so that your answers can be yes to both questions. Please don't assume in your negotiations that you won't be there for a career, because that is the type of mindset that will keep wages and working conditions in the bottom of the barrel. Let's face it...the major airline opportunities are disappearing rapidly and the majority of us will probably be spending a career in regionals, nationals, fractionals, etc. Let's make sure that we're receiving the best possible compensation that the industry and market can bear.

Anyways, best of luck in your negotiations and my apologies once again for the hot-headed posts.

Later.

 

[climbhappy]

kingairkiddo.....furthermore

I appreciate your position and the point is well made.

i am convinced that in the nineties two dynamics were at work. the high trunover at the regionals caused and incredibly high number of training events. those costs alone could fund a lucrative pilots retirement plan. today the destabilizing effect of the downturn and the global terro thing do two things. first, wages have some downward pressure. i think since american,continental, delta, and northwest all have publicly said they expect more concessions from pilots. they have bankruptsy lawyers . they even think they are at a cost disadvantage to united and usair.

Imagine having your house payment suspended for six to twelve months or even lowered 25 to 50 percent. to me, it's downward pressure. but back to my earlier point, if training events are reduced substantially, and the bottom is reached there is no where to go but up. and while we're on the way up, realizing this may be my last stop, i then become proactive and enlist other pilots to join in to get those better rules.

finally, if us air and their pilot group would have seen the advantage of using regionals and funded them, we might not be having this conversation.

 

[Beantown]

If this TA passes, the management at other carriers will be in a position to say effectively, "well gosh guys, Mesa operates under these terms, so why shouldn't you."

Again, I don't understand this line of thinking. How come when ACA and Air Wisky were negoatiating there contract a few years back Mgmt didn't bring the Mesa (or TSA, CHQ, Eagle, Pinnnacle) contract(s) up in these terms? If not then, why now? -Bean

 

[KingAirKiddo]

Beantown,

Because with a poor economy and a steady supply of pilots wanting to work, management is in a position to call the shots now. That wasn't the case pre-recession and pre-9/11.

KAK

 

[Speedtree]

You Mesa guys make it sound like it's not your fault. You guys are a disgrace to the industry if you think your attitudes toward contracts and business deals aren't hurting everyone. UAL makes money off of AWAC, Skywest, and ACA. We aren't hurting their bottom line one bit.

Yet you continue to say that it's all a matter of what the industry can handle and it's supply and demand. Whatever. That is true to a point but we are highly trained professionals and demand better than what you guys are accepting. That's what the unions were created for in the first place. If you don't fight for something why have a union in the first place. Dump ALPA and save yourselves the union dues. You can't be much worse off. If you can't see that being a pilot is more than just a cool way to pick up chicks at the bar so be it. We have day labor in Houston that makes more money and has more time off than what your new TA gives you. And if I had it all to do over again, hey I would chosse that over working at Mesa. It's companies like AWAC and Comair that make the regionals a great place to be. And the industry can handle it.

 

[g159av8tor]

"you imply it is still mesa pilots who threaten your job. Listen, a company,any company with a cost advantage can and will in free markets price their work to get the business."

Unfortunately, the Mesa cost advantage is not management's business savvy, it's their ability to out-smart their pilot group and pay them well below current industry standards. In return what will you receive? What about the big picture--the Profession?

And what will become of the regional industry if the big three foreclose the farm (they really can't buy it)? Nobody really knows. What will happen if you guys sell out? We ALL know, in 5 years we'll all be flying 70+ seat RJs for today's 50 seat wage at best. But, we WILL be flying 70 and 90 seat RJs! I guess that is something to look forward to.

Tailwinds...

 

[CRJ Driver]

Whats this "we" $hit, the only people dumb enough to fly 70 seat RJ's for 50 seat pay would be mesa.

 

[climbhappy]

speedtree and g150av8tr

speedtree... you said we're a disgrace etc,etc..... and we're hurting the industry etc

two things, do you have any proof? second, again, united voting themselves a thirty percent pay raise in a recession, summer 2001, when midway filed for ch 11 after a huge drop in biz travel, was pure wrecklessness..... it's that kind of wreckless disregard for the realiites of modern business forces and factors that has two major carriers in bk

us air failed to see the role of the rj, they had thirteen different aircraft types in 2000 and their pilots were paid as good as the big three..... result- cost that couldn't support revenue in a downturn, result ... BK

you toss out innuendo, but cant support your argument

g159av8tr, you said mesa mgt outsmarted us. it's clear many of you have listened to older pilots whose malice toward a pilot group spreads as quick as the gossip at a georgia country club women's bridge game.


i won't insult you, just debate you, i think you're misinformed.
one point, when i was at cc air, the older guys confused union membership with stock ownership, it's not the same thing.

got to go, got to work !

 

[WileE]

What is that?

What is the industry standard 50 seat pay? What is the industry standard 70 seat pay? Has anyone set that? No, they haven't. Should ALPA have fought for same pay for the same equipment regardless of airline? Sure they should have done that a long time ago with every contract that ever came up in the past, but they didn't. Stop trying to make us out as the ones who should draw the line in the sand and become martyrs for the rest of you. If your last contract wasn't industry leading, why did you accept it? If your company is talking pay concessions, why aren't you out on strike right now? If your scope lets them start alter ego carriers or contract out your flying, why aren't you on strike right now for a scope that will keep them from doing that?

Me I feel that between 60 and 80 grand is fine for a CA position on that jet. It's not great but you can live just fine on that if you don't have two mercedes in the garage and 3 alimony payments. How much is job security worth to you? 5 grand? Maybe 10 grand? Are you willing to sacrifice anything to guarantee you a job for 5 more years? is making a more than decent wage for 90% of the rest of the americans out there not good enough or do you need to be rolling in dough to be happy?

Sure it's not a good wage compared to the wages people negotiated pre-recession and before the collapse of the airline industry. I would love to be negotiating in that same environment as that. But those are the same folks taking massive concessions now or getting their companies shut down. Our MEC decided to pick its fight and it chose job security over transient pay increases. Those are just dandy if they can send your flying to some other carrier and put you on the street on a whim, as a lot of you are figuring out.

If you aren't in contract negotiations in this environment, stop trying to dictate what those of us who are should be doing. This company has gone from a nowhere company flying only props out of NM to a national in just 5 and a half years. Our pilot group hasn't had a dozen contracts in good times to work up to industry leading pay status, we've had one before this current TA. We are putting ourselves in position to take that leap next time if we don't shoot ourselves in the foot right now for a fantasy of getting it all tomorrow.