UAL and CAL

[Palomino]

ahhhh...the good ole days of $60 CAL shares and shortage of airplanes

 

[coogebeachhotel]

Gotta love the $112 share price of DAL and that "Continental would be a nice add on" Wow what a moron.

 

[banned username 1]

For the CAL guys, I wouldn't be so worried about a senority list integration. First, furloughees are addressed AFTER all pilots on property... per ALPA policy. Second, UAL pilots have little to no backbone left, they proved this when they let their management steal their pensions and force 50% of paycuts and workrules reductions down their throat all with out a fight.

Hmmmmmm.....spoken like a true outsider. Yes, we all recall the photos in the paper where UAL pilots were picketing with signs that said "Thank you sir, can I have another". Yes, it's a dirty little secret that we really like everything that's happened to us and we feel ashamed for the compensation that we once enjoyed! One person (you) may call it a lack of backbone. Another might just call it a "hard-learned case of acute situational awareness". I contend it's the latter, something that unfortunately, many others are in the educational stage of as we speak.

Regards-

 

[(o) (o)]

Holy cow!!

I wonder if the UAL guy will bring the scab list on every trip.

this is gonna be ugly....for the ********************inental guys

 

[CAL EWR B737]

Zonker,

Thanks so much for posting the Wall Street Journal article. I haven't read it since the day it came out. After reading it again I got that same sick feeling in my stomic that I had on that fatefull Sunday.

Frats

 

[banned username 1]

Jeez! I can't believe you guys. Could this happen? Yes. But you could also be struck by lightening while you're sleeping tonight. Why in the world should you all get worked up over something that could happen, when there are a lot of things that realistically could happen with more certainty that you're not worrying about, and be just as important to you?

Talk about self-induced death by peptic ulcers!

Let's wait until something really happens (and none of us is going to change it) and then we can get collectively worked up together.

Until then, chill out and enjoy the ride.

 

[Jomama]

Amen!

 

[whymeworry?]

I was tasked with getting picketing permits out side the law firm and Papa Bear was sent stake out the law firm and was in a hotel room across the street. Back then the IACP was so cheap they didn't give us cell phones we had those stupid pagers you could type text messages. I must have sent 100 messages to Papa Bear that night. It was really great to see our union leadership CAL and CALEXP put aside all differences to come together that night to save the CAL pilots careers. Telling this story I feel like listing to the mission impossible theme.[/quote]

 

[whymeworry?]

Yes I was working with Papa Bear. The way it went down. I was called twenty minutes before the Super Bowl started by my boss on the Strike Committee and was told of our dire situation. He told me my career depended on me somehow tracking CD Mclean and Mike Campbell to the NYC location. Since there was no way for me to get to EWR in time to tail them personally, it was my job to find someone who could. I was calling the crew room and crash pads etc to find someone.

I did find a pilot to help out. I told him to take a cab and follow them and I would pay him back. He couldn't because he had to fly. I told him to follow them and get the license plate of the car they got in. He called me back with the license plate info.

I relayed it back to our war room at the IACP headquarters. Lets just say one of our leaders had a connection with law enforcement and got the phone number of the limo company. A certain individual who will remain nameless broke into the CALEXP CP pilot office and called the limo company with some sob story (that way caller id showed Continental) about he had a huge stack of papers that needed to go with those two CAL Execs they took to NYC from EWR. He pleaded with them because if they didn't get the important documents he had his job was on the line. The limo company bought off on it and gave us the address of the law firm where the emergency board meeting was taking place.

Our Internet gurus in the war room found the phone and fax numbers of the law firm. A letter from the IACP to the CAL BOD was faxed shortly thereafter. They were shocked we found them. Even CAL management wouldn't tell our union leaders where they were going for fear of breaking confidentiality agreements. Many phone calls between our IACP leadeship and Mclean and Campbell insued. We threatened to shut the place down if our pilots weren't protected. They relayed back and forth between the CAL BOD and our union leaders. What was really shocking was what was in that Wall Street Journal article. That reporter had to be sitting at the table to get all of the info into the article. Can someone look up the Wall Street Journal article and post it here? It was the Tuesday following the Super Bowl in late Jan or early Feb 98.

I was tasked with getting picketing permits out side the law firm and Papa Bear was sent stake out the law firm and was in a hotel room across the street. Back then the IACP was so cheap they didn't give us cell phones we had those stupid pagers you could type text messages. I must have sent 100 messages to Papa Bear that night. It was really great to see our union leadership CAL and CALEXP put aside all differences to come together that night to save the CAL pilots careers. Telling this story I feel like listing to the mission impossible theme.

I remember those days when CAL and CALEX pilots were like brothers. It felt nice to be part of a big family. Funny how the CALEX pilots went to the edge for the CAL pilots, then took the CAL pilots under their wing and into their senority list during the furlough... Only to be kicked/ stabbed in the back by getting booted from the MEC and put behind off-the-street pilots once CAL started to hire again. Tragic.

 

[CAL EWR B737]

Good points. Personally I didn't favor a split MEC. In fact I would have much preferred a single list and contract. But that is water under the bridge and unfortunately that window of opportunity has long slammed shut.

As we can now look back on our troubled union history. Our CA and FO rep that was just recalled in IAH (still smiling from ear to ear) was elected from and drew their strength from a power base on the mantra of a split MEC (CAL and CALEXP).

As history will prove that single event (the election of weak and spinless IAH reps) change in leadership just before joining ALPA in 2001 has cost both pilot groups CAL and CALEXP (especially CAL on our pathetic contract 2002) much more than I would care to say.

We need to remember our history to prevent similar events in the future. However today is a bright new day. Over the period of the last few days the CAL MEC has turned back into a real union. Most importantly our IAH brothers and sisters came together (from a previous apathetic base which in rarely participated in our union) and played a hugh role in taking back our union and removing those with little or no integrity. We have many new hires that will be coming off probation in the coming months and years to help run and support our union. Better days ahead! I almost feel the same high I did after we brought ALPA back on property in June of 2001.

 

[CAL EWR B737]

One additional point to all. Many on hear including myself have taken shots at ALPA. Let us remember We ARE ALPA! While yes national has made some big mistakes, the ALPA triangle puts the membership on top and the leadership on the bottom. That is why the membership wears gold union pins and the leadership pewter (sliver) pins. Until this week the CAL ALPA triangle was on it's side.

If we don't like what is happening within our union, start making changes. Elect strong reps on the local level and empower them to make changes in national both in personnel and agenda. If we at CALALPA can take back our MEC then the rest of ALPA can take back our union!

 

[Boeingman]

Holy cow!!

I wonder if the UAL guy will bring the scab list on every trip.

this is gonna be ugly....for the ********************inental guys

Should be for the UAL guys as well. Last time I looked, their were quite a few UAL pilots on that scab list.

Now if we can all grow up and stop acting like children, perhaps the pilots in this industry can face the real threats to our careers. Lousy ALPA representation and management bent on destroying our careers.

 

[Boeingman]

Can you inform the ones that were in elementary school when this was going on?

Early 90's

 

[Boeingman]

UAL78 is exactly right on all counts.

A couple of comments though about seniority integrations. Those that think in ANY merger, furloughed pilots will go ahead of active pilots are bucking the trend in past arbitrations.

Arbitrators look for precedant as well as other issues. I won't badger the point but look at the outcome of Pan American and National and read how those lists were integrated. PanAm furloughed pilots got little if any credit for their seniority while on furlough. If memory serves me correctly new hires went above PAA pilots that were on the streets for years.

 

[densoo]

Restructured United may be merger target-analysts
Tue Dec 13, 2005 02:43 PM ET

By Kyle Peterson CHICAGO, Dec 13 (Reuters) - United Airlines is poised to start life after bankruptcy as a leaner, possibly meaner flying machine that may look like a tempting merger partner for another major airline seeking a mate.

The No. 2 U.S. carrier, a unit of UAL Corp. (UALAQ.OB: Quote, Profile, Research) , has given no indication that it is interested in merging with another airline. But some analysts think United may be a player in some kind of airline consolidation scenario.

"We certainly wouldn't be surprised," said Chris Lozier, Morningstar analyst, noting that United has been on a mission to cuts costs and streamline operations for three years since it filed for Chapter 11 protection from creditors in 2002.

"The things that would make one an attractive merger prospect are the same things that would make an airline profitable," Lozier said.

Last week, Jeff Misner, chief financial officer at Continental Airlines (CAL.N: Quote, Profile, Research) , told investors that Continental and United would make a formidable combination. Misner said the airline would consider an offer if United were to make one.

A United spokeswoman said that for competitive reasons United does not comment on rumors.

"We're focused on completing our restructuring, exiting bankruptcy in February and competing with the strongest carriers," said the spokeswoman, Jean Medina.

REDUCING CAPACITY

Experts have made it clear that the ailing U.S. airline industry needs consolidation to remove capacity so carriers can raise fares and boost revenue.

Top carriers have been struggling to cover costs as low-cost competitors force fares down. Meanwhile, soaring fuel prices and excess capacity have exacerbated those woes.

But despite predictions of consolidation, only two airlines -- US Airways Group and America West Airlines -- have merged this year. They teamed up to form a new airline called US Airways Group (LCC.N: Quote, Profile, Research) . Its shares have risen some 72 percent since listing on the New York Stock Exchange on Sept. 27.

Among the most difficult hurdles for airlines preparing to merge are combining their work forces and their fleets. Heavily unionized airline labor groups present problems for managers sorting out knotty compensation, training and seniority issues.

Experts say carriers in bankruptcy, however, have flexibility in restructuring that could ease integration. For example, US Airways used Chapter 11 protection to cut labor costs and shrink its fleet, bolstering its appeal to America West.

Aside from United, Delta Air Lines Inc. (DALRQ.PK: Quote, Profile, Research) and Northwest Airlines (NWACQ.PK: Quote, Profile, Research) are both in bankruptcy, attempting to cut costs.

Leaders at the former America West said US Air's transcontinental routes also presented a good opportunity for America West to expand its own reach.

New US Air Chief Executive Doug Parker, long an advocate of airline consolidation, told the Reuters Aerospace and Defense Summit last week that almost any two major airlines could be matched up. But he acknowledged that blending labor forces is tricky business.

US Air is still consolidating its work force, a task that requires extensive union negotiations.

Analysts said a carrier like United also would need to secure investor financing to cover the costs of integration.
"They'd have to have not only their exit financing. But they'd have to have a bridge that would have to cover the integration of whichever companies were involved," said Robert Mann, airline consultant at RW Mann & Co.

Michael Boyd, airline consultant at the Boyd Group, said, however, that high integration costs make it extremely unlikely that United will merge with another airline. "It could be done, but it would be very expensive," Boyd said. "I don't think (United) would be a tempting partner for anyone given the expense involved."

http://yahoo.reuters.com/financeQuoteCompanyNewsArticle.jhtml?duid=mtfh39059_2005-12-13_19-43-48_n12280452_newsml

 

[densoo]

CALEX ... then took the CAL pilots under their wing and into their senority list during the furlough.

While this was one great deal for CAL pilots to have the flowback to Express, the "under the wing" phrase makes it sound like it was from generosity rather than a contractual obligation. And it didn't come without cost for Express pilots. Those who bargained for this provision were Express pilots who wanted to protect themselves after they flowed up to CAL in case there was a furlough from CAL. And protect them it did! Express pilots kept their DOH seniority on the Express list and continued to accrue seniority on that Express list after they had left Express and were flying for CAL. When the CAL furlough came, they went back to Express with their original DOH, going right to the top of the bidding list at all the bases, in some cases after having been gone for several years. You can imagine how the Express pilots felt who had a boatload of pilots entering their seniority list from the top. It must be rare in the history of ALPA to have a pilot accruing seniority on two lists at once. What a deal it was.

The off the street hires were on the receiving end of pure dump luck in that CAL IACP had wisely stipulated that if Express pilots get to flowback, then all pilots get to flowback. While not what Express pilots originally wanted, it was the "deal with the devil" they had to make in order to get guaranteed "flowup" job interviews to CAL that they desired. I think the agreement was that an Express pilot would be one of every three new hires at CAL. They agreed, the document was signed, and no one was the wiser until 9/11 put it all into play.

 

[whymeworry?]

While this was one great deal for CAL pilots to have the flowback to Express, the "under the wing" phrase makes it sound like it was from generosity rather than a contractual obligation. And it didn't come without cost for Express pilots. Those who bargained for this provision were Express pilots who wanted to protect themselves after they flowed up to CAL in case there was a furlough from CAL. And protect them it did! Express pilots kept their DOH seniority on the Express list and continued to accrue seniority on that Express list after they had left Express and were flying for CAL. When the CAL furlough came, they went back to Express with their original DOH, going right to the top of the bidding list at all the bases, in some cases after having been gone for several years. You can imagine how the Express pilots felt who had a boatload of pilots entering their seniority list from the top. It must be rare in the history of ALPA to have a pilot accruing seniority on two lists at once. What a deal it was.

The off the street hires were on the receiving end of pure dump luck in that CAL IACP had wisely stipulated that if Express pilots get to flowback, then all pilots get to flowback. While not what Express pilots originally wanted, it was the "deal with the devil" they had to make in order to get guaranteed "flowup" job interviews to CAL that they desired. I think the agreement was that an Express pilot would be one of every three new hires at CAL. They agreed, the document was signed, and no one was the wiser until 9/11 put it all into play.

densoo,

You bring up some valid points. Indeed the FTA was a somewhat lopsided agreement when it was negotiated in 1997-1998. And some pilots made out like bandits (especially those flying at COEX for 150% of their rate until they flowed over to CAL as lineholders with more than a year senority). Personally, I voted against the FTA back in the day because it didn't address the concerns of the entire pilot group, jus tthe top 300-400 pilots. I remember a certain elected rep telling me that the FTA wasn't designed for guys like me to get on with CAL, rather it was designed to get guys like me over to the left seat faster. I found that to be a rather arrogant and calous statement. And in fact, many of those types flowed over to CAL with a sense of entitlement while their junior union brothers were left to fend for themselves.

Nevertheless, my comments were not meant to stir the pot on this issue. Rather to show how the CALEX pilots went through great hardships during the furlough (I have no axe to grind here, the furlough didn't affect me... just making an observation). When things turned around and CAL stated hiring again, quite a few had the door slammed on their face, and many of those pilots were the very ones who fought hard for their CAL pilot brothers nd sisters over the years. And that's waht unionism is all about. All for one, one for all. Without sticking together, we can't get to the next level.

Regarding the FTA being "contractural". If you recall in July of 2001, CAL announced their intention to spin off CALEX and terminate the FTA. This was done prior to 9/11 and some CALEX pilots were struggling with this issue when the flowback situation started to occur at the end of '01 and into '02. They had a problem with the situation not because they didn't want flowbacks to take their jobs, rather because they wanted assurances from CAL and the CAL pilots that when things finally turn around, the FTA will continue to assist the CALEX pilots career progression. Well, as you know, the FTA terminated and nobody "upstairs" seemed to really care or remember the sacrafices the CALEX brothers made. Now this wouldn't be such a big deal, I mean we all tend to forget what's in the rear view mirror, but when CAL started hiring again, non-ALPA pilots (some with extremely low time) were welcomed with open arms over to CAL while many of those who sacraficed were forgotten. Hardly union brothership as I see it. There should have been some sort of outcry from the CAL pilots on this issue, IMHO.

I'm not saying all the CALEX pilots should have been hired ahead of ots pilots. I'm just pointing out how some of the sacrafices made over the years get forgotten and we as union members tend to leave our own out in the cold. It send the wrong message, IMHO.

Now, to the other side of the arguement, there were many CALEX pilots who refused to support a continuation of the FTA during the furlough. They felt "burned" by getting bumped down and wanted to let the FTA expire so they could protect "their" senority list.. I use to lecture them, at the time, that the day will come when CAL begins hiring again and they ought to work to keep that door open. Well, many couldn't (or wouldn't) see that far in front of them and accordingly worked hard against the MEC efforts to secure a new FTA. Now that things are moving again, I'm sure they think otherwise. In fact, I'm sure they don't remember being so vocal in arguing against a new FTA back in '02-'03.

Either way, what's done is done. Hopefully we can all learn from these moments of unity, or lack thereof, and use those expereinces to better shape our approach to unionism in the future.

 

[densoo]

Either way, what's done is done. Hopefully we can all learn from these moments of unity, or lack thereof, and use those expereinces to better shape our approach to unionism in the future.

What a reasoned reply. Thanks.

For the CAL "off the street" flowbacks, the unity at Express was stunning compared to what they had seen at CAL. Using this unity Express pilots were able to leverage improvements in their contract across the board ($28/hr to $42/hr for FO is a pretty big leap). Compare that to the unnecessary concessions CAL pilots took while the FAs held their ground and gave little.

My own metaphor to the MEC split is that those who love the dark can't bear being around the light. When bigger might have been better, the unenlightened at CAL voted to separate. Express was an absolute breath of fresh air, a too brief respit, from the angst at CAL in the opinion of a lot of those who experienced both.

 

[EWR756]

It must be rare in the history of ALPA to have a pilot accruing seniority on two lists at once.

Just to clarify: Seniority, Yes. Longevity, No.

Yes it was a one-sided agreement. When the Flow-Through Agreement was originally drafted there were fewer than 900 pilots at Continental Express. The people that negotiated the Flow-Through never anticipated the explosive growth of Express nor the possibility of a massive furlough at CAL (Approx. 5x Larger than the previous furlough).

I don't disagree with your statements, and there certainly were some inequalities.


By the way, I'm no longer a Lurker

 

[coogebeachhotel]

I think DM and CD have some of the blame too