Ual and cal alpa should

[catIIIc]

As a 2006 hire at CAL I can hold 777 fo in EWR, 756 FO at any base and currently hold 40% on the 737 in IAH. I was to be a widebody captain in 15 years, in fact our 97-98 hires are 756 captains right now, so what does this merger bring me that I could not already hold. So eaglesview are you not going to abide by the arbitrators decision if you don't like the outcome? Do you think I should be back on reserve after the SLI, or furloughed? I just want to still be able to hold weekends off and summer and spring break vacations, that was my expectations before the merger. I don't want anything I didn't bring to merger just don't take what I brought either.

 

[Skyflyin]

] ALPA does now have LOS in the merger agreement.

Just out of curiosity, how much length of service does the most senior furloughed United pilot have? Is it 1997-2001 then 2004-2005 for a total of 6 years?

 

[eaglesview]

As a 2006 hire at CAL I can hold 777 fo in EWR, 756 FO at any base and currently hold 40% on the 737 in IAH. I was to be a widebody captain in 15 years, in fact our 97-98 hires are 756 captains right now, so what does this merger bring me that I could not already hold. So eaglesview are you not going to abide by the arbitrators decision if you don't like the outcome? Do you think I should be back on reserve after the SLI, or furloughed? I just want to still be able to hold weekends off and summer and spring break vacations, that was my expectations before the merger. I don't want anything I didn't bring to merger just don't take what I brought either.

OK so lets flip this around. The f/o's I fly with will be widebody captains at the end of their career. Are you saying because you reached your "career expectation" sooner they should be locked out of theirs forever. On the whole I would bet the 97/98 hires I fly with are older than your conterparts. Your idea of fair seems to be "slide me into the widebody f/o seat at UAL" which is about 20ish years of service.

 

[catIIIc]

Where did I say that I want to slide into a widebody seat at UAL? I can already hold a widebody seat so I am not sliding into anything. So you are saying that because I have achieved these career expectations sooner that I should just accept reserve or worse when the SLI is done? Believe me I know that it could happen, arbitrators are a fickle bunch, will you accept the arbitrators decision if it does not go the way you hope? In the end everyone will feel that they got screwed and the other guy got away with murder, so where do we go from here? When we are done with our JCBA both of our Merger Committee will be at each others throats in front of an arbitrator and he will make a decision. I will accept his decision will you?

 

[waveflyer]

And that was my point earlier-
Similar dynamics are in place with this as at USAIR- UAL is the weaker carrier, and more stagnant from 9/11 up to the merger- but they have the proud history of being one of the oldest and best airlines in the world and it was the best job prior to bin Ladin - and most importantly, they are the larger carrier and can democratically throw many more roadblocks up than CAL could.

So it is a fair question- will UAL pilots accept an arbitrated decision ?? It really doesn't matter if CAL would or not, they don't have the numbers to stop anything- but UAL does.

This is now two times where the bigger carrier was weaker at the time of the merger. The first time hasn't been good for any of us- how about now?

 

[Flopgut]

Thanks Wave. You're just a real breath of fresh air.

 

[eaglesview]

Where did I say that I want to slide into a widebody seat at UAL? I can already hold a widebody seat so I am not sliding into anything. So you are saying that because I have achieved these career expectations sooner that I should just accept reserve or worse when the SLI is done? Believe me I know that it could happen, arbitrators are a fickle bunch, will you accept the arbitrators decision if it does not go the way you hope? In the end everyone will feel that they got screwed and the other guy got away with murder, so where do we go from here? When we are done with our JCBA both of our Merger Committee will be at each others throats in front of an arbitrator and he will make a decision. I will accept his decision will you?

It doesn't matter what I accept and don't. I am enough of a realist to know my single voice does not matter. Hopefully you are correct and in the end we will all be pissed off. that will mean mission accomplished.

ps. Are you saying the guys I fly with should accept not being able to hold the widebody at all because some guy just got lucky with the timing?

 

[DontFeedTheBear]

It doesn't matter what I accept and don't. I am enough of a realist to know my single voice does not matter. Hopefully you are correct and in the end we will all be pissed off. that will mean mission accomplished.

ps. Are you saying the guys I fly with should accept not being able to hold the widebody at all because some guy just got lucky with the timing?

Why would they not have their widebody seats? If a relative seniority is implemented of the active pilots, with considerations for seat, position and career expectations, why would they not get that chance? The DOH and LOS are only possible considerations as per ALPA policy, the most important is "fair and equitable" where nobody (who can currently hold it) loses their seat, position and pay.

As for timing, that is within each respective company. The luck is in who chose a stronger company. No punishments and no windfalls will be the key to this merger.

Do you really believe that the person at the bottom of either active list has different career expectations? They are both narrowbody, reserve FO's, jr based, No? and the top person at either list is the same, No?

 

[sleeves]

So it is a fair question- will UAL pilots accept an arbitrated decision ??

How will they stop it? US Air is holding up the contract. We are doing the contract first, to avoid the drama of US Air. I am sure it will be ugly, with all of us hating each other for years, but I do not see it being held up.

 

[whatitdoing?]

Or United could just furlough another 500 pilots on January 15, 2012. United pilots lose their furlough protection at the end of 2011. Also United is over staffed. If history shows us any thing. It is that Continental management likes as few pilots as possible.

So keep your advice, hold out till next year. Maybe the company can find 500 more pilots to use as hostages. It would help the CAL-ALPA merger committee. In the argument, that a 2007 hire CAL pilot should be senior to a UAL 1995 hire using the relative seniority model.

I talked to a former negotiator about this very topic and he said that he told the UAL side that they were crazy to sign this Transition Agreement because it only gave them protection till January 15 2012. 500 were out the door just before the merger and the United side is reducing their block hours. He firmly believes they'll furlough more on the United side with no protections for them. That'll suck............