Ual-alpa t/a leak......

[Deerkiller]

My point is you can't prevent management's ability to outsource. One can trade that negotiating capital for whatever you want, but if you believe that you are actually preventing something that pure economics hasn't prevented on its own then you are fooling yourself.

If it is cheaper to fly smaller jets at lower pay, then it will happen. If it is not cheaper to fly smaller jets at lower pay, then it wont happen. Scope has never and will never have any effect on the actual amount of flying done by smaller jets.

Hey SS, next time you go to an airport look at the UAL, DAL, AM Eagle, and UsAir 70 seaters sitting in line for takeoff. You will then see the a 50 seat Continental Express RJ. That's scope. It's hard and fast, and our contract has rock solid language regading 50+ seat RJs.

 

[densoo]

Hey SS, next time you go to an airport look at the UAL, DAL, AM Eagle, and UsAir 70 seaters sitting in line for takeoff. You will then see the a 50 seat Continental Express RJ. That's scope. It's hard and fast, and our contract has rock solid language regading 50+ seat RJs.

And a 70-seat prop. Hard, but maybe not so fast.

 

[Deerkiller]

76 seat prop, actually.

If they wanna try and run 76 seat Q400s on a route that a 70-90 seat jet should fly and run off all our passengers, then go ahead. I've got a side business that is starting to gather some momentum.

 

[P38JLightning]

My point is you can't prevent management's ability to outsource. One can trade that negotiating capital for whatever you want, but if you believe that you are actually preventing something that pure economics hasn't prevented on its own then you are fooling yourself.

If it is cheaper to fly smaller jets at lower pay, then it will happen. If it is not cheaper to fly smaller jets at lower pay, then it wont happen. Scope has never and will never have any effect on the actual amount of flying done by smaller jets.

You can prevent management's ability to outsource. If you couldn't, then EVERYTHING would be outsourced.

It's cheaper to fly ALL jets for "lower pay" yet it does NOT happen at airlines with scope to prevent it. Scope is THE strongest part of any contract (assuming it's written well) and is the best use for a dollar of "bargaining capital" by far.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Yet as pilots we will gladly take our income to any other industry and embrace outsourcing.....

So why is it ok for us to mess with other professions and jobs, but we want no outsourcing in our profession..... Seems hypocritical....

 

[Deerkiller]

Yet as pilots we will gladly take our income to any other industry and embrace outsourcing.....

So why is it ok for us to mess with other professions and jobs, but we want no outsourcing in our profession..... Seems hypocritical....

That's a bit of a broad stroke, but ok. I personally do what I can to buy products that are made in the good ole U S of A. You're right a lot of products are made in third world countries where labor is cheap and un-organized(read: no unions). However, your comments makes it out that we are advocating and pressing for this outsourcing.

Secondly, just because my neighbor has decided to use illegal people to mow his yard, doesn't mean I have to. Just because other industries have allowed their jobs to be outsourced doesn't mean I'm gonna let my job get sent overseas. It's not hypocritical, it's life. A lot of people fought and lost the outsourcing battle w/ management. Fortunately, our contracts have limited this and we need to make sure those protections remain in place.

 

[Jetjockey]

Thats why this industry and especially UAL are so screwed up, "ME MINE MENTALITY" he is probably the same capt that didn't know UAL had furloughed again. UAL is 2 different companies, wide-bodies(not talking about FA's) and everything else. Wide bodies didn't even know how crappy the lcc rules were, and therefore were wondering why the narrow body guys were complaining so much. Nothing will change until that mentality is changed!

Ultra senior 777 captain who is probably over 60 doesn't care about scope. He's just happy to wake up and pee, preferably not at the same time. That pilot represents 2%, the rest care DEEPLY about scope!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

That's a bit of a broad stroke, but ok. I personally do what I can to buy products that are made in the good ole U S of A. You're right a lot of products are made in third world countries where labor is cheap and un-organized(read: no unions). However, your comments makes it out that we are advocating and pressing for this outsourcing.

Every purchase of a product or service that provides a low price due to outsourcing is a vote for outsourcing.

We go to the Cheesecake Factory Rest. Its good. The illegal labor in the kitchen staff and the illegal labor that picked the tomatoes and lettuce is a vote not only for outsourcing but it is a beacon for any Central or South American who wants to attempt the border crossing.

Secondly, just because my neighbor has decided to use illegal people to mow his yard, doesn't mean I have to.

No, but you still have to support via govt programs the legal American who can't compete with the low wages that the illegal is willing to work. Or do you expect a legal American to work for illegal wages?

So as a consumer base, we pay illegal labors' low wages and we pay welfare, food stamps and child health programs for legal Americans who have decided that govt assistance is a better deal.....

Just because other industries have allowed their jobs to be outsourced doesn't mean I'm gonna let my job get sent overseas. It's not hypocritical, it's life. A lot of people fought and lost the outsourcing battle w/ management. Fortunately, our contracts have limited this and we need to make sure those protections remain in place.

Sorry but it is not this easy....

Just like you don't care if others have fought and lost the outsourcing battle, no one cares if pilots lose the outsourcing battle. Listen to yourself talk in the above quote... basically what you are saying is "I don't care about you, but I care about me...." Problem is, there are 300M consumers that don't care about your pilot job and what the same thing you want in any given industry... low prices....

We can't keep feeding this insatiable machine called The Hyper Consumption Economy... The race to the bottom is designed to get a few people rich as it discards the rest of us.....

Consider this... if every product and service in our economy had a label that said "illegal labor free". First off, if every purchase had a label that said Made with Illegal Labor, many wouldn't care but many would be shocked to see how much of our economy is based up illegal labor.

Are you willing to pay for more for products and services that are illegal labor free? Are you willing to scale back on your consumption? Certainly as pilots we want people to buy a ticket that affords a fair pilot wage....

You can't have your cake and eat it too......

A vast majority of this will be solved when consumers decide to stop voting for outsourcing..... yet it is so engrained into our culture.

Do you even think that most people even consider there is illegal products and services at major corporate restaruant chains?

 

[Nevets]

My point is you can't prevent management's ability to outsource. One can trade that negotiating capital for whatever you want, but if you believe that you are actually preventing something that pure economics hasn't prevented on its own then you are fooling yourself.

If it is cheaper to fly smaller jets at lower pay, then it will happen. If it is not cheaper to fly smaller jets at lower pay, then it wont happen. Scope has never and will never have any effect on the actual amount of flying done by smaller jets.

Its cheaper to fly 767s at a lower pay as well. Anyways, nothing stops the mainline from using their own pilots to fly 50 seat jets at lower pay.

 

[FlyForFood_NOT]

Bring the 70-90 seat jets on mainline property and we'll be more than glad to fly them here for JetBlue or MidAtlantic E190 payrates.. but give them up to express and we're all screwed for years. Look at Lufthansa.. they just gave up their strongest scope. Still don't know why..

 

[P38JLightning]

Bring the 70-90 seat jets on mainline property and we'll be more than glad to fly them here for JetBlue or MidAtlantic E190 payrates.. but give them up to express and we're all screwed for years. Look at Lufthansa.. they just gave up their strongest scope. Still don't know why..

You will never see 70-90 seat jets at a mainline for JetBlue E190 pay. If those planes are to be flown at mainline (or at least with exclusively mainline pilots) then you will have to agree to current market rates (SkyWest/ASA/CoEx/Comair/Mesaba/CHQ/etc) rates and ALL contractual terms (work rules, tiny retirement contributions, etc).

That will be the ONLY way to begin to insource those lost pilot jobs. JB E190 rates won't happen for those planes until decades of successful insourcing take place.

 

[Deerkiller]

Every purchase of a product or service that provides a low price due to outsourcing is a vote for outsourcing.

We go to the Cheesecake Factory Rest. Its good. The illegal labor in the kitchen staff and the illegal labor that picked the tomatoes and lettuce is a vote not only for outsourcing but it is a beacon for any Central or South American who wants to attempt the border crossing.

You know of illegal labor? Have you informed the authorities?

No, but you still have to support via govt programs the legal American who can't compete with the low wages that the illegal is willing to work. Or do you expect a legal American to work for illegal wages?

So as a consumer base, we pay illegal labors' low wages and we pay welfare, food stamps and child health programs for legal Americans who have decided that govt assistance is a better deal.....

Yup, sucks.

Sorry but it is not this easy....

Just like you don't care if others have fought and lost the outsourcing battle, no one cares if pilots lose the outsourcing battle. Listen to yourself talk in the above quote... basically what you are saying is "I don't care about you, but I care about me...." Problem is, there are 300M consumers that don't care about your pilot job and what the same thing you want in any given industry... low prices....

That's not what I said. The point of that sentence was that just because the fight over outsourcing in other areas has been lost doesn't mean I'm just gonna roll over and allow it in my industry.

We can't keep feeding this insatiable machine called The Hyper Consumption Economy... The race to the bottom is designed to get a few people rich as it discards the rest of us.....

Consider this... if every product and service in our economy had a label that said "illegal labor free". First off, if every purchase had a label that said Made with Illegal Labor, many wouldn't care but many would be shocked to see how much of our economy is based up illegal labor.

Are you willing to pay for more for products and services that are illegal labor free? Are you willing to scale back on your consumption? Certainly as pilots we want people to buy a ticket that affords a fair pilot wage....

You can't have your cake and eat it too......

A vast majority of this will be solved when consumers decide to stop voting for outsourcing..... yet it is so engrained into our culture.

Do you even think that most people even consider there is illegal products and services at major corporate restaruant chains?

You are correct. The buying public has turned a blind eye to what happens behind the curtain, just to save a few bucks. Yes, I am willing to pay more for services. Like I said in my previous post I make an effort to buy American made products, preferably crafted by union labor. However, we all know these products are decreasing in number everyday. And I will fight tooth and nail to prevent it in airline jobs.

I'm not real sure why it is you're against it...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You know of illegal labor? Have you informed the authorities?

Nope. No need. The authorities or the Fed Govt simply don't have the manpower or the desire to combat what the people really want... It is like the war on drugs.... a facade.

Yup, sucks.

Agreed... however, most citizens, er I mean consumers are either uninformed or indifferent. Got to have to low prices.

That's not what I said. The point of that sentence was that just because the fight over outsourcing in other areas has been lost doesn't mean I'm just gonna roll over and allow it in my industry.

I understand what you are saying but you can't expect 300M potential airline passengers to care about pilot outsourcing when pilots patronize outsourcing in other industries..

You are correct. The buying public has turned a blind eye to what happens behind the curtain, just to save a few bucks. Yes, I am willing to pay more for services. Like I said in my previous post I make an effort to buy American made products, preferably crafted by union labor. However, we all know these products are decreasing in number everyday. And I will fight tooth and nail to prevent it in airline jobs.

I'm not real sure why it is you're against it...

I am not against it... the issue is.. how do we make a difference when 300M consumers are plugged into the "matrix"......

It is going to take a lot of pain amongts the 300M to reach critical mass to effect change....

Have you read
The Shock Doctrine
and
The Value of Nothing

 

[Jetjockey]

You will never see 70-90 seat jets at a mainline for JetBlue E190 pay. If those planes are to be flown at mainline (or at least with exclusively mainline pilots) then you will have to agree to current market rates (SkyWest/ASA/CoEx/Comair/Mesaba/CHQ/etc) rates and ALL contractual terms (work rules, tiny retirement contributions, etc).

That will be the ONLY way to begin to insource those lost pilot jobs. JB E190 rates won't happen for those planes until decades of successful insourcing take place.

You won't see them at the new UAL, CAL scope will remain. The jobs aren't lost, they remain thanks to CAL scope. I got 7 months cash reserve and a comfortable pair of walking shoes to ensure that's a fact. Anything less and this job isn't worth it anymore.

 

[taxicabdriver]

Was just told by our union that we can't get scope back....The contracts at UAL are already in place with various regionals and can't be broken...I'm so PO'd right now I cant see straight. After finding out now we don't need separate ratifications of the new JCBA whenever its negotiated....WOW....Scope was the biggest no-deal for me and now he just tells me we can't expect to hold onto CAL's scope protection... Any scope relief is a NO vote for me and now we are stuck with UAL's scope at the best-case scenario....I say burn baby burn