Ual-alpa t/a leak......

[P38JLightning]

Unlike the theoretical "bargaining credit" union busting tactic of accepting additional scope give aways versus "holding the line", taking scope back actually does have an associated cost to it. It's not something you can throw on a tall pile of demands and make it so, just because it may be wanted.

In order to roll back scope in the slightest (much less the MASSIVE rollback to 50 and under jets only) numerous contracts with feeders will have to be renegotiated or bought out entirely. UCALPA will have to pay 100% of the cost of that. Whatever the number is, and I'm sure ALPA EF&A knows to the penny (or could quickly calculate it) I'd wager that it will be a pretty steep sum. probably many tens of millions, if not low 100 millions.

Every penny of that will come directly out of pay, retirement or work rule improvements that said monetary amount could otherwise be spent on. It's easy to say that 50 seat jet scope will be a demand, but the hardest thing, by far, will be enforcing that demand not from management, but from one's own pilot group. That is no mystery, that is exactly how so much scope has been given away in the first place (in good times and in bad).

I'm sure UCALPA will throw that in their opener, but will it survive? Will a "home run" big double digit raise triple dip work rule rebuttal by the company be turned down? Whatever CBA UCAL ends up with, it WILL be much, much less if it reclaims scope, even if it's more than either CBA today. Spending that much bargaining capital on scope reclamation is bold and practically unheard of in this industry and there is a reason for that. If this is not THE number one issue, it WON'T happen. However, if it is, then it might, but it will be a fight.

 

[densoo]

And so it begins: "may...acquire regional aircraft..." They may just start down this path as if scope isn't going to be there in the end, hoping that the momentum will make it a foregone conclusion. This will be a fight.

"Continental also benefits from the new agreement as the major airline may take advantage of SkyWest’s balance sheet to acquire regional aircraft, and utilize the regional aircraft owned by SkyWest."
http://seekingalpha.com/article/219252-regional-airlines-mimic-major-counterparts?source=yahoo

 

[Jetjockey]

Section 1 is #1! Make this clear to your reps. If someone else is doing your job, what does it matter what the rest of sections have in it?

(section 1 is SCOPE)

 

[GuppyWN]

Section 1 is #1! Make this clear to your reps. If someone else is doing your job, what does it matter what the rest of sections have in it?

(section 1 is SCOPE)

...... and you were the one commenting on my hard stance against codeshare at WN?

Give 'em hell! I completely agree. Without a SOLID section 1 nothing else matters.

Gup

 

[CFIT]

Unlike the theoretical "bargaining credit" union busting tactic of accepting additional scope give aways versus "holding the line", taking scope back actually does have an associated cost to it. It's not something you can throw on a tall pile of demands and make it so, just because it may be wanted.

In order to roll back scope in the slightest (much less the MASSIVE rollback to 50 and under jets only) numerous contracts with feeders will have to be renegotiated or bought out entirely. UCALPA will have to pay 100% of the cost of that. Whatever the number is, and I'm sure ALPA EF&A knows to the penny (or could quickly calculate it) I'd wager that it will be a pretty steep sum. probably many tens of millions, if not low 100 millions.

Every penny of that will come directly out of pay, retirement or work rule improvements that said monetary amount could otherwise be spent on. It's easy to say that 50 seat jet scope will be a demand, but the hardest thing, by far, will be enforcing that demand not from management, but from one's own pilot group. That is no mystery, that is exactly how so much scope has been given away in the first place (in good times and in bad).

I'm sure UCALPA will throw that in their opener, but will it survive? Will a "home run" big double digit raise triple dip work rule rebuttal by the company be turned down? Whatever CBA UCAL ends up with, it WILL be much, much less if it reclaims scope, even if it's more than either CBA today. Spending that much bargaining capital on scope reclamation is bold and practically unheard of in this industry and there is a reason for that. If this is not THE number one issue, it WON'T happen. However, if it is, then it might, but it will be a fight.

This above statement is very much inline. The only error is that the required cost would probably exceed over a billion dollars.

The aircraft manufacter's expect scope relief.
The legacy airline management expect scope relief.
The regional airline management expect scope relief.

Maybe expectations will fail but it seems managment has won every battle, pilots fly planes, management runs the airline.

Good luck

I'll bet when managemnt dangles a 10 to 20 % increase under the senior pilots wages, scope will drop like a bad habit?

Just remember, ALPA just wants the money, they can get more from the legacies than the regionals and will push it that way.

 

[IAHERJ]

IAHERJ, Please don't give up the conversation! You are a moderating voice of reason! This wasn't meant to be an all-is-lost off-the-wall incaccurate comment.

As I said in my post there will be a "push" to adopt to UAL's scope. They will use any and all arguments to get it done, whether logical or not. One part of the argument is likely to be, "UAL is the buyer, we don't have scope, since CAL is joining our operation, you need to give up your scope, too. C'mon guys. Let's play nice."

It's not logical, but I'm sure theyll do it as part of the beat-them-back strategy.

Scope has nothing to do with the certificate, I know. It's contractual. But I believe the above is going to be a part of their argument to give up scope, to whomever will listen--parts of the pilot groups, an arbitrator, or the court of public opinion.

Agreed, they will use the argument you bring up along with a host of other arguments I'm sure. I honestly don't think either the CALALPA membership nor the UALALPA membership is going to budge on more 70 plus seat aircraft. I think it is going to be a tough fight but in the end, we will see an agreement that holds the # of 70 seat jet aircraft at the current level with an agreement to negotiate mainline wages for aircraft seating 70-90 going forward. The new UAL has the opportunity to be the launch customer in the U.S. for one of the new smaller jets that will be more fuel efficient than the current crop of jets seating 70-90 people(CRJ-900/EMB-190). Should they want to take advantage of this opportunity to order the new C-series or the MRJ, the time is now. I have faith the joint negotiating committees will hammer out rates that are win win for both sides.
Cautiously optimistic.

IAHERJ

 

[IAHERJ]

What was that advantage of having the CAL and Air Mic certificate all these years? And if there are any advantages, why wouldn't the Air Mic certificate remain?

I've heard two different stories on this. I had an FAA guy on the jumpseat last year coming back to the mainland from Guam. He said that the FAA wanted more transparency from CAL on the division of the CAL operation and the Air Mike side. We operate the two seamlessly from a customer standpoint however behind the scenes, there are differences that become apparent when you fly out in the system(not just a call sign change for us on the 767). Operating the airline out there on a separate certificate allows the airline to limit its specialized training in the flight operations arena and politically, it is advantages for us to market "Continental Micronesia" as a local airline for those who count on our service for both day to day living as well as the tourism we help flourish in the region.

 

[hotwing]

The UAL is the "buyer" therefore the surviving certificate. The push will be to adopt the way UAL is operating, IOW no scope. Pilots will have to fight to put it back in the bottle.

I like how you assume that since UAL is the buyer, that their certificate is the one that will be used... There is a committee that has been formed and they are studying which certificate to actually use and all the ramifications of each said certificate... If we apply your thought process here, it would mean that we use the UAL contract, their scope, their ceo, there everything... Is that happening, NO... Just curious where you found this logic?

 

[densoo]

I like how you assume that since UAL is the buyer, that their certificate is the one that will be used... There is a committee that has been formed and they are studying which certificate to actually use and all the ramifications of each said certificate... If we apply your thought process here, it would mean that we use the UAL contract, their scope, their ceo, there everything... Is that happening, NO... Just curious where you found this logic?

No logic at all. Zero. None. So stop trying to find logic in it. It's completely emotional--as will be the fight. Once the planes are painted, "we" are UAL. Public perception, pilot perception, Wall Street perception will be UAL.

UAL is massively outsources at both ends, the regionals for the small stuff, the Irish for some larger. "Sorry guys, we are UAL and UAL doesn't have scope. Mr Arbitrator, please rule against the pilots as their scope demands are both unreasonable, out of line with the rest of the industry, and not practiced at UAL."

Details? Logic? It won't be there. It will a contest of wills and the perception that the pilots are being unreasonable and are undermining the sound business decisions of the new management.

And the pilots have to be ready to refuse to listen to any logic, details, trade-offs, paybacks, promises, sticks or carrots. If scope isn't there, pilots have got to walk away. In 2002, one airline was "logic"ed right into the worst contract in the industry. They can't let it happen again.

 

[thor2j]

No logic at all. Zero. None. So stop trying to find logic in it. It's completely emotional--as will be the fight. Once the planes are painted, "we" are UAL. Public perception, pilot perception, Wall Street perception will be UAL.

Actually, to wall street it is united continental holdings