Type Rating Requirements

[User Name]

We have some feds saying that we need 2500hrs. turbojet to get a type rating in a Level C or D simulator. Where is that number coming from? I've searched the regs for an additional rating and it appears there are a variety of ways to meet the requirements to earn a type rating in a Level C or D simulator, but none even require 2500 total time let alone 2500 turbojet. Thanks for your help.

 

[viper548]

The regs may have changed since he looked at them last.

I haven't looked at that reg in a while but if I recall correctly there are no time requirements to get the type in a sim. The hour requirements determine if there will be 25 hours of supervision required.

 

[HMR]

I got a type rating at ~1700TT. Not sure what your Fed is thinking. Why not ask him to show you the reg?

 

[Thedude]

hmmm...the best i remember to get a type, on your ATP, in the SIM is to have 2000TT and 500 hrs in type. That is doing the entire type in the sim and not the 85/15 split.

 

[Lead Sled]

We have some feds saying that we need 2500hrs. turbojet to get a type rating in a Level C or D simulator. Where is that number coming from? I've searched the regs for an additional rating and it appears there are a variety of ways to meet the requirements to earn a type rating in a Level C or D simulator, but none even require 2500 total time let alone 2500 turbojet. Thanks for your help.

I believe that all depends upon the requirements that the particular training center has in its approved curriculum (sp?). There may indeed be some minimum experience levels called for, although 2,500 hours seems a bit much. I believe that FlightSafety has some programs with 1,000 hour minimums.

'Sled

 

[HMR]

In 2003, one of my old students got a type in his CJ1 with ~800TT. He did everything in the sim at FSI. There were some limitations placed on him but he was flying with a low time CFI in the right seat shortly after.

Thedude- I did my entire type and ATP ride in the sim with less than 2000TT/500 in type.

 

[English]

A pilot I know did his Citation type at Simuflite when he was 20 years old and had 700 hours total time. All he had was an SOE limitation (since it was his first type and it was accomplished 100% in the sim).

This was within the last year.

 

[mattpilot]

A pilot I know did his Citation type at Simuflite when he was 20 years old and had 700 hours total time. All he had was an SOE limitation (since it was his first type and it was accomplished 100% in the sim).

This was within the last year.

SOE limitation?

 

[English]

He couldn't be PIC until he had 25 hours of operating experience ACTING as PIC.

 

[viper548]

25 hours of Supervised Operating Experience. Basically, a qualified PIC has to supervise you performing the duties of PIC. You can not be the PIC until the limitation has been removed.

 

[English]

What he said....

 

[JAFI]

Whenever there is a question of "the regs" you should always ask for a reference. From your boss or a Fed.

I have never heard of a "2500 hour" requirement in the FAR's for anything. It sounds more like an insurance requirement to me. Also, it has been my experience that people in the industry who want something done without any questions use the phrase "because the FAA said so". You may want to check your source information on exactly who said what to whom.

You can get a type rating during your first private pilot exam if you are taking the exam in a type rated aircraft. I use the word "can" only because there is nothing in the regs (that I know of) that will not allow you to do so. I do not know of any body that has recieved a type during an initial private exam. I would think the exam would be ... comprehensive.... If you will ever get insurance to fly a type rated aircraft with only 40+ hours is another story.
JAFI

 

[LittleDeuce]

Appendix H

We have some feds saying that we need 2500hrs. turbojet to get a type rating in a Level C or D simulator. Where is that number coming from? I've searched the regs for an additional rating and it appears there are a variety of ways to meet the requirements to earn a type rating in a Level C or D simulator, but none even require 2500 total time let alone 2500 turbojet. Thanks for your help.

The answers you are looking for are in FAR 121 Appendix H The Advanced Simulation Plan. The Fed is correct.

 

[JAFI]

You are correct. (see below copy of 121 appx. H)

I'm not sure about the 2500 hour requirement for a Part 142 school though. I'll have to look that up.

I did not remember ever seeing that requirement for 121.

JAFI


Part 121 Appx. H
Level C
Training and Checking Permitted

1. For all pilots, transition training between airplanes in the same group, and for a pilot in command the certification check required by §61.153(g) this chapter.

2. Upgrade to pilot-in-command training and the certification check when the pilot—

a. Has previously qualified as second in command in the equipment to which the pilot is upgrading;

b. Has at least 500 hours of actual flight time while serving as second in command in an airplane of the same group; and

c. Is currently serving as second in command in an airplane in this same group.

3. Initial pilot-in-command training and the certification check when the pilot—

a. Is currently serving as second in command in an airplane of the same group;

b. Has a minimum of 2,500 flight hours as second in command in an airplane of the same group; and

c. Has served as second in command on at least two airplanes of the same group.

4. For all second-in command pilot applicants who meet the aeronautical experience requirements of §61.159 of this chapter in the airplane, the initial and upgrade training and checking required by this part, and the certification check requirements of §61.153 of this chapter.

 

[HawkerF/O]

Wrong. Not true. Here is the exception. If you have an SOE and you do not have it removed, you can get another type in another aircraft, and that will dump the SOE off of your 1st type. The SOE is only for your 1st type rating. Example, get a lear type. It will have an SOE on it. You never fly the lear, and 6 months later, you return and get a Hawker type. When the Hawker type is issued, the SOE will get removed. If the examiner does not do it, the FAA will catch it before they send you your new certificate. At that point, even if you have never flown either aircraft, legally, you are allowed to go fly as PIC in either aircraft. Not all 1st types have an SOE. There is a list of requirements that will determine whether or not you will have an SOE. If you do get an SOE, there are other requirements that will determine whether or not it will be a 15 or 25 hour SOE.

25 hours of Supervised Operating Experience. Basically, a qualified PIC has to supervise you performing the duties of PIC. You can not be the PIC until the limitation has been removed.

 

[jimpilot]

Wrong. Not true. Here is the exception. If you have an SOE and you do not have it removed, you can get another type in another aircraft, and that will dump the SOE off of your 1st type. The SOE is only for your 1st type rating. Example, get a lear type. It will have an SOE on it. You never fly the lear, and 6 months later, you return and get a Hawker type. When the Hawker type is issued, the SOE will get removed. If the examiner does not do it, the FAA will catch it before they send you your new certificate. At that point, even if you have never flown either aircraft, legally, you are allowed to go fly as PIC in either aircraft. Not all 1st types have an SOE. There is a list of requirements that will determine whether or not you will have an SOE. If you do get an SOE, there are other requirements that will determine whether or not it will be a 15 or 25 hour SOE.

This is wrong! If you only have a type rating with an SOE restriction on it and go through a 142 program for another type rating it will come with the same SOE restriction. Only the below can remove it.

You can get a type rating on any level of certificate starting at private (JT has a private with type ratings on it). If you don't meet time and experence requirements or hold an unrestricted type, you will have an SOE restriction put on the type. You will have to perform either 15 or 25 hours of doing the duties of the PIC under the supervision of the PIC. Record that in your log book, have the PIC sign each leg and then you can take it to your local FSDO (DPEs can't do it) and they will remove the restriction.

Under part 142 this replaced the 85/15 check of the past.

If you need aditional info just PM me.

 

[HawkerF/O]

Nope. You are wrong, wrong, wrong!!!! The SOE is only for the 1st type rating. Look up the REG that governs the SOE. Maybe 30 years ago when you did it it was like that, but now it is not. You are flat out wrong. I have several friends where this situation has happened. If some 142 school is doing it as you described, then their POI needs to be called and the matter needs to be looked into. Go look it up, then come back and tell us what you find. It's all right there in black and white.

This is wrong! If you only have a type rating with an SOE restriction on it and go through a 142 program for another type rating it will come with the same SOE restriction. Only the below can remove it.

You can get a type rating on any level of certificate starting at private (JT has a private with type ratings on it). If you don't meet time and experence requirements or hold an unrestricted type, you will have an SOE restriction put on the type. You will have to perform either 15 or 25 hours of doing the duties of the PIC under the supervision of the PIC. Record that in your log book, have the PIC sign each leg and then you can take it to your local FSDO (DPEs can't do it) and they will remove the restriction.

Under part 142 this replaced the 85/15 check of the past.

If you need aditional info just PM me.

 

[HawkerF/O]

I went ahead and did the work for you. Here is the partial text from FAR 61.157 that pertains to the SOE. Notice it says "Hold a type Rating", not hold an unrestriced Type rating. If you are typed in something with an SOE, even though you have an SOE, you are none the less, still typed. That means you would infact meet the requirements of the REG, thus it would eliminate the SOE requirement.

(ii) The applicant must meet the aeronautical experience requirements of §61.159 of this part and at least one of the following—

(A) Hold a type rating for a turbojet airplane of the same class of airplane for which the type rating is sought, or have been designated by a military service as a pilot in command of an airplane of the same class of airplane for which the type rating is sought, if a turbojet type rating is sought;

(B) Hold a type rating for a turbopropeller airplane of the same class as the airplane for which the type rating is sought, or have been appointed by a military service as a pilot in command of an airplane of the same class of airplane for which the type rating is sought, if a turbopropeller airplane type rating is sought;

(C) Have at least 2,000 hours of flight time, of which 500 hours must be in turbine-powered airplanes of the same class as the airplane for which the type rating is sought;

(D) Have at least 500 hours of flight time in the same type of airplane as the airplane for which the type rating is sought; or

(E) Have at least 1,000 hours of flight time in at least two different airplanes requiring a type rating.

 

[HawkerF/O]

Also, since you have read my above post of 61.157 by now, are you saying that if you had an SOE on your type, but now you also meet the 2000 TT and 500 hour Turbine in same class and you go for another type that you would still have an SOE? Think about it. The SOE type would meet the requirement, but just say it didnt and you meet one of the other requirements, you would not have an SOE on your 2nd type as you previously stated. The 2nd type would also remove the SOE from the 1st type. How much sence would it make to have a C500 type with an SOE, then you go for an additional type in a G-IV. The G-IV would be unrestricted, so of course teh C500 would be as well. Wouldn't be reasonable to say, "Well, you can fly the G-IV as PIC all you want, but you can't fly the C-500 as PIC until you get more experience!"

This is wrong! If you only have a type rating with an SOE restriction on it and go through a 142 program for another type rating it will come with the same SOE restriction. Only the below can remove it.

You can get a type rating on any level of certificate starting at private (JT has a private with type ratings on it). If you don't meet time and experence requirements or hold an unrestricted type, you will have an SOE restriction put on the type. You will have to perform either 15 or 25 hours of doing the duties of the PIC under the supervision of the PIC. Record that in your log book, have the PIC sign each leg and then you can take it to your local FSDO (DPEs can't do it) and they will remove the restriction.

Under part 142 this replaced the 85/15 check of the past.

If you need aditional info just PM me.

 

[jimpilot]

Nope. You are wrong, wrong, wrong!!!! The SOE is only for the 1st type rating. Look up the REG that governs the SOE. Maybe 30 years ago when you did it it was like that, but now it is not. You are flat out wrong. I have several friends where this situation has happened. If some 142 school is doing it as you described, then their POI needs to be called and the matter needs to be looked into. Go look it up, then come back and tell us what you find. It's all right there in black and white.

Pretty strong words. Let's do what you say, let's go to the FAA web site and go to their frequently asked questions section. When we get there let's look at question numer 399.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/afs/afs800/afs840/part_61/media/pt61FAQ.doc

I will include it's text here:

QUESTION: A pilot comes to FlightSafety and does not qualify for a 100% simulator ride, which would result in a clean certificate under 14 CFR §§ 61.63(e)(4)(ii) and 61.157(g)(3)(ii).



Therefore he or she completes the 100% ride in a simulator and receives the rating or certificate with rating, with the 15 or 25 hour SOE limitation. Let's say it is in a CE-500.



The person in question then does not fly the required 15 or 25 hours of SOE to remove the restrictions but rather goes through another 100% simulator turbojet type rating course. Let’s say a CE-650. Again the person does not meet the requirements for the 100% check except this time he or she produces the CE-500 type rating with the SOE limitation and suggests that he now qualifies for the 100% check under 14 CFR § 61.63(e)(4)(ii)(A).



The question is, does the applicant actually qualify to take the 100% check in a simulator, and then receive a clean CE‑650 type rating (meaning without any S.O.E limitations)? If the answer is yes, they could then go back and take a CE‑500 recurrent or if all of this was done within 60 days of completion of the original CE-500 training course just take another CE‑500 checkride and have both types clean (meaning without any S.O.E limitations).



I know I have asked this question before and the answer was no. This is circumventing the intent of the regulation. The question has reappeared and I cannot put my hands on anything in writing. Can you help?



An additional fact is that AFS 200 has ruled that because of the wording in 14 CFR §135.338(c) a person with a type rating with SOE limitation may not instruct in Part 135.



This is creating a problem for FSI since they are having a problem getting the SOE removed. It is easier, (and I think cheaper) for them to just send a person through the second type rating course.



ANSWER: Ref. 61.63(e)(4)(ii)(A) and 61.157(g)(3)(ii)(A). The applicant does not qualify under 61.63(e)(4)(ii)(A) or under 61.157(g)(3)(ii)(A) to take a 100% practical test in a simulator for the CE‑650 type rating. The intent of “. . . Hold a type rating for a turbojet airplane of the same class of airplane for which the type rating is sought . . .” in subparagraph (A) in 61.63(e)(4)(ii) and subparagraph (A) in 61.157(g)(3)(ii) requires that the type rating be clean (meaning without any S.O.E limitations).

{Q&A-399}

Could you please give me the names of your friends who had their SOE removed so we can notify the right folks.


And before you make statements like:

You are wrong, wrong, wrong!!!! Maybe 30 years ago when you did it it was like that, but now it is not. You are flat out wrong.

You might want to know a little something about what you're talking about.

Let's see if he even responds to this...............................

 

[viper548]

Finding a loophole to skirt the intent of an FAR is a bad idea.

 

[jasonwb]

the main requirement for a type rating is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
cmon we all know that........
my $.02

jb

 

[Thedude]

the main requirement for a type rating is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
cmon we all know that........
my $.02

jb

ummm yeah (rolls eyes)

 

[some_dude]

Legend has it that Larry Ellison got his private in a CitationJet. I wonder if it's true?

You can get a type rating during your first private pilot exam if you are taking the exam in a type rated aircraft. I use the word "can" only because there is nothing in the regs (that I know of) that will not allow you to do so. I do not know of any body that has recieved a type during an initial private exam. I would think the exam would be ... comprehensive.... If you will ever get insurance to fly a type rated aircraft with only 40+ hours is another story.

 

[ultrarunner]

We have some feds saying that we need 2500hrs. turbojet to get a type rating in a Level C or D simulator. Where is that number coming from? I've searched the regs for an additional rating and it appears there are a variety of ways to meet the requirements to earn a type rating in a Level C or D simulator, but none even require 2500 total time let alone 2500 turbojet. Thanks for your help.

Don't even talk to the feds. There is a reason most of them work for the FAA.

Talk directly to your training provider. They conduct the training. Some fed at a FSDO as nothing to do with it.

 

[JAFI]

There is a reason most of them work for the FAA.

That is true, The FAA now pays better than many flying jobs.

Weekend and holidays off. You get to sleep in your own bed. Vacation when YOU want to take it. We all make choices...


JAFI

 

[HawkerF/O]

Of course I am going to respond! You're still wrong. 1st, I think there is confusion as to what question the guy answering the question is being asked. Here is the answer he gives, "The applicant does not qualify under 61.63(e)(4)(ii)(A) or under 61.157(g)(3)(ii)(A) to take a 100% practical test in a simulator for the CE‑650 type rating. "

The question was about whether the SOE would be removed, not whether he could take a 100% ride in the sim. The guy didnt even answer the right question.

Also, I don't know what other things the PART 142 schools use, but at the FSI and especially Simuflite, anyone who hits the door can take a 100% ride in the sim. Whth the modern technology, it's the sim itself that is limiting. not the canidate. As long as it is level C or D, the entire ride can be accomplished in the sim. With anything less that C or D, circiling approachs cannot be accomplished because of the level of graphics, so if all you have is a level A orB, then the aircraft is used to complete those items.

Also, in reading the website that you referenced, it specifically states that these answers are not legal answers, just opinions of the author. Even thought he works for the FAA, he has his own opinion, but let's face it, it's not the one that counts. Obviusly it's not the one that counts as 142 schools are operating in a menner different that what this guy is suggesting. Everybody has their own opinion. Call any 2 FSDOs with the same question, and you'll get 2 different answers. The best place to go is the Training provider. Each FSi is governed by it's local FSDO, so things are going to be different between any 2 FSI. Technically, it might be skirting the FARs by using their own wording, but it is because of that wording that allows this practive to be legal. No matter what you or anyone else says, this practice occurs on a regular basis.

Finally, my friends Names: Mike Hunt and Anita Goodwon. Feel free to pass their names on to whoever you need to pass them on to, but I can assure you it wil not make any difference.

Pretty strong words. Let's do what you say, let's go to the FAA web site and go to their frequently asked questions section. When we get there let's look at question numer 399.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/afs/afs800/afs840/part_61/media/pt61FAQ.doc

I will include it's text here:

QUESTION: A pilot comes to FlightSafety and does not qualify for a 100% simulator ride, which would result in a clean certificate under 14 CFR §§ 61.63(e)(4)(ii) and 61.157(g)(3)(ii).



Therefore he or she completes the 100% ride in a simulator and receives the rating or certificate with rating, with the 15 or 25 hour SOE limitation. Let's say it is in a CE-500.



The person in question then does not fly the required 15 or 25 hours of SOE to remove the restrictions but rather goes through another 100% simulator turbojet type rating course. Let’s say a CE-650. Again the person does not meet the requirements for the 100% check except this time he or she produces the CE-500 type rating with the SOE limitation and suggests that he now qualifies for the 100% check under 14 CFR § 61.63(e)(4)(ii)(A).



The question is, does the applicant actually qualify to take the 100% check in a simulator, and then receive a clean CE‑650 type rating (meaning without any S.O.E limitations)? If the answer is yes, they could then go back and take a CE‑500 recurrent or if all of this was done within 60 days of completion of the original CE-500 training course just take another CE‑500 checkride and have both types clean (meaning without any S.O.E limitations).



I know I have asked this question before and the answer was no. This is circumventing the intent of the regulation. The question has reappeared and I cannot put my hands on anything in writing. Can you help?



An additional fact is that AFS 200 has ruled that because of the wording in 14 CFR §135.338(c) a person with a type rating with SOE limitation may not instruct in Part 135.



This is creating a problem for FSI since they are having a problem getting the SOE removed. It is easier, (and I think cheaper) for them to just send a person through the second type rating course.



ANSWER: Ref. 61.63(e)(4)(ii)(A) and 61.157(g)(3)(ii)(A). The applicant does not qualify under 61.63(e)(4)(ii)(A) or under 61.157(g)(3)(ii)(A) to take a 100% practical test in a simulator for the CE‑650 type rating. The intent of “. . . Hold a type rating for a turbojet airplane of the same class of airplane for which the type rating is sought . . .” in subparagraph (A) in 61.63(e)(4)(ii) and subparagraph (A) in 61.157(g)(3)(ii) requires that the type rating be clean (meaning without any S.O.E limitations).

{Q&A-399}

Could you please give me the names of your friends who had their SOE removed so we can notify the right folks.


And before you make statements like:

You are wrong, wrong, wrong!!!! Maybe 30 years ago when you did it it was like that, but now it is not. You are flat out wrong.

You might want to know a little something about what you're talking about.

Let's see if he even responds to this...............................

 

[jimpilot]

Good Luck

Of course I am going to respond! You're still wrong. 1st, I think there is confusion as to what question the guy answering the question is being asked. Here is the answer he gives, "The applicant does not qualify under 61.63(e)(4)(ii)(A) or under 61.157(g)(3)(ii)(A) to take a 100% practical test in a simulator for the CE‑650 type rating. "

The question was about whether the SOE would be removed, not whether he could take a 100% ride in the sim. The guy didnt even answer the right question.

Also, I don't know what other things the PART 142 schools use, but at the FSI and especially Simuflite, anyone who hits the door can take a 100% ride in the sim. Whth the modern technology, it's the sim itself that is limiting. not the canidate. As long as it is level C or D, the entire ride can be accomplished in the sim. With anything less that C or D, circiling approachs cannot be accomplished because of the level of graphics, so if all you have is a level A orB, then the aircraft is used to complete those items.

Also, in reading the website that you referenced, it specifically states that these answers are not legal answers, just opinions of the author. Even thought he works for the FAA, he has his own opinion, but let's face it, it's not the one that counts. Obviusly it's not the one that counts as 142 schools are operating in a menner different that what this guy is suggesting. Everybody has their own opinion. Call any 2 FSDOs with the same question, and you'll get 2 different answers. The best place to go is the Training provider. Each FSi is governed by it's local FSDO, so things are going to be different between any 2 FSI. Technically, it might be skirting the FARs by using their own wording, but it is because of that wording that allows this practive to be legal. No matter what you or anyone else says, this practice occurs on a regular basis.

Finally, my friends Names: Mike Hunt and Anita Goodwon. Feel free to pass their names on to whoever you need to pass them on to, but I can assure you it wil not make any difference.

A 100% type rating is a type rating without an SOE. Ask your training provider, they will explain it to you.

When you're ready for a type rating, explain your view of the regulations to them. Tell them John Lynch and the FAQs are wrong and you have the right answer. I'm sure they will listen.