Type A or B RNAV STARS ( KLAS)

[hawkerjet]

A little help from someone smarter than me. I just recently flew into LAS McCarran, while that's not unusual the clearance getting part was. Here Goes

I am flying a Westwind I with dual KLN 900's (yeah I'm sorry too) and RVSM. I file for FL220 and as a slant "L". According to The AC that's what a gps (slant "G")and RVSM aircraft should file as. Clearance comes back and gives me the Kepec arrival. I ask clearance to check the remarks section of my flight plan(No type A or B RNAV SID or STARS) and they come back and say that center's computer will automatically give me the Kepec if I file as a slant "L".
OK, we're only going to Vegas from VNY so I say file us as a slant"G", 1 minute later same answer. I ended up filing as a slant "A".

Has anyone else had this problem. If there are any Lacy pilots on board I'd like to know what you do, You guys do this trip more than anyone.
Can anyone shed a little light.
Thanx

 

[Hawker800]

We have the same issue with the GNS-XLs' in our Hawker. KLAS did the same thing to us. Use /L as well. For some reason ATC computers assign us a type A or B. The GNS is not approved for them yet. We are looking at an upgrade to our equipment that Honeywell has come out with to cure the problem. I could be wrong but I think ATC is mistaken. Just my two cents worth.

 

[hawkerjet]

Unless we are over looking the obvious, ATC's equipment is at fault. Any other airports with Type A or B RNAV SID or STARS having the same problem?

 

[GravityHater]

we were told our gnsxls can be upgraded by 'one rnp level' for 10000$, and the 'full deal' for 63000$. whatever that means.
Or we could be reasonable, and get a UNS.
Same problem with the rnp procedures here; /L

 

[real swift]

I've been filing /K with no problem(LAS,TEB,FLL and the like) ...we have the old universal 1M. I think ATC is geared toward using/assigning the rnav arrivals because "most" people have the equipment and of course its the latest and greatest.

In your case, /L indicates GPS with enroute and terminal capability...their computer equates that with /Q.

 

[G100driver]

Why do we not switch to ICAO? This would solve a bunch of these problems!

 

[hawkerjet]

I just ran this through the VNY FSDO and they couldn't answer me, so they referred me to LA Center, who then got someone in DC.
It appears a can of worms has been opened. It appears we will have another equipment suffix. slant idiot. I'll keep you posted.

 

[hawkerflyer]

slant idiot

Thanks for that. Needed a good laugh this morning.

 

[soarby007]

It looks to me like you just need to file /W. That gets you RVSM and nothing else. L indicates you have WAAS, which I don't think the 900 has. I also have a westwind with the old universal 1M and we file L, which is probably wrong, but the chief pilot insists that is the correct code. I think probably the universal 1M qualifies for a /K.

 

[flipper66]

/W indicates RVSM , but no GPS which doesn't seem right if you want to fly using GPS. The way I Read it, /L is correct - /G with RVSM. The way I see it, the important part is indicating "No RNAV SID's or STAR'S" in the remarks, regardless of the fact that ATC computers don't recognize it properly. For instance we are certified for RNP 1 enroute, but our GPS's are not type A or B compliant. In order to fly the "Q" routes in the gulf we have to file /Q. That only leaves us with to remarks to indicate that we can't fly the RNAV STAR's. Just my 2 cents.

 

[starcheck208]

we ran into the same problem at LAS and told the controller we couldn't do type a and b, he had no clue what that ment. told him which sid we could do and he assigned us that (same dp, just different name)

 

[hawkerjet]

I just heard back from the FAA and here's what they recommend.


Thanks for the note regarding the suffix issue. Yes, we know this is a pain for some operators more than others. Large operators who file automated flight plans with the FAA can suppress the assignment of RNAV procedures using the overcast symbol in the remarks section.

The specialist who accepts a flight plan with no-RNAV in remarks should file it adding the overcast symbol. Perhaps they were unaware of the need to do so? If we can get the info when that occurs I would be happy to look into it.

Barring that, if assigned the procedure you are exactly right, notify ATC...they should then suppress the assignment by adding the overcast symbol to the remarks section.

I recommend against not filing the incorrect suffix, but this is not the first I have heard of that.

Unfortunately, because of the forthcoming transition (2009) from the HOST automation system to the ERAM (En Route Automation Modernization), we do not have the option to make any more changes to the host. I don't believe we will make any further changes to the suffixes either. With the advent of ERAM we will be able to use the ICAO equipment identifiers, and we also anticipate being able to file PBN codes, and possibly RNAV codes initially/RNP codes subsequently using the ICAO flight plan. For those who file NAS flight plans the suffixes will translate to the ICAO, and there may be some ability to provide a performance/RNAV indicator....These items are in the planning/definition phase, so please don't quote me there...They may not look the same when fielded, and we are not at the aviation community, including controller, education phase yet.

HTH,

R/
Jim Arrighi
FAA Air Traffic Organization
System Operations Services
RNAV/RNP Group
[email protected]
202-385-4680

I hope that helps.

 

[puddlejumper]

Does anyone know what the "overcast symbol" is that the specialist needs to put in the remarks section?

PJ

 

[dispatchguy]

It's a specific key on their keyboard - they dont have the standard PC QWERTY keyboard like you and I.

 

[GravityHater]

The Direct Approach, a newsletter put out by Cessna Sept 06 issue says
the GNSXLS will not be upgraded to WAAS.
For $10K you can get an upgrade that will make it an RNP unit and for that you can accept the type A and B RNAV SIDS & STARS (and PRnav in Europe). This price is a 'discounted' ($3K) price til Dec.
Author was Tim Garroutte 316 517 8005 [email protected]

So it looks like GNSXLS plus RVSM = /L to me.

 

[jeb]

I talked with a Honeywell Rep at the NBAA and was the told the $3000.00 discount was for the vendors not for the retail operator. I have been sent paperwork saying if we upgrade this year we will get the discount.