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TWR visibility

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fowingman

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 23, 2006
Posts
227
whats the rule on this?

visibility on the atis is 1/4 mile but the tower visbility is reporting 2 miles on the atis as well, can you start the approach (cat 1)

what about now if there is rvr on that runway and they are showing 2000, (my understanding is flight visibility so rvr woudn't really matter)
 
whats the rule on this?

visibility on the atis is 1/4 mile but the tower visbility is reporting 2 miles on the atis as well, can you start the approach (cat 1)

what about now if there is rvr on that runway and they are showing 2000, (my understanding is flight visibility so rvr woudn't really matter)


Visibility on an Atis or TAF is controlling to be dispatched to an airport.

To begin the approach touchdown RVR is controlling.

If no RVR is available then the visibility reported by the approach controller is controlling (they get it from the tower)

And if the RVR is below mins and you have the airport in sight, you cannot accept a visual
 
Ok, lets talk about t/o vis. Lets say that tower is calling the tower vis below t/o mins but the runway touchdown point is above mins but the roll out is below mins.
 
Ok, lets talk about t/o vis. Lets say that tower is calling the tower vis below t/o mins but the runway touchdown point is above mins but the roll out is below mins.

In this case, you would be using RVR. RVR is controlling. It would not matter what the tower vis is.
 
Ops Specs...

This sort of thing is in the ops specs, but they are all pretty much the same. If the ops specs allows you to use RVR, then it is controlling.

Think of it this way:
-The tower cab is lost in a bank of fog, but the fog only covers up the top of the tower. Maybe you get below the 300 ft. level and it is totally clear underneath.
-The RVR in in this case would be much more useful to what you will see at DH, while the top of the tower is totally obscured. You can have times like this in real life, and the FAA wants to give you another measure of visibility to rely on to shoot an approach and land.
 
We are allowed to do contact approaches 121. However by the time you review all of the requirements for the approach might as well have shot an IAP! Have to have above cat 1 circling vis for an IAP to the airport, have the airport in sight or be below reported ceiling and on an IAP inbound course with visual ref to navigate, have VFR charts, ect....
 
Ok, lets talk about t/o vis. Lets say that tower is calling the tower vis below t/o mins but the runway touchdown point is above mins but the roll out is below mins.

You talking about RVR below landing mins for that runway (IE 1800) or you talking about RVR below low vis t/o limits (IE 600)?

If you are talking about below 1800RVR then I'd say you can go if your ops specs allow it as long as you get a t/o alt.

If you are talking about less than 600 RVR then you can't go if one of them is below 600, however you can go if one is inop and you are able to meet all of the 600/600/600 t/o req's in your ops specs.
 
At the 121 airlines I've been at(3) none were authorized to do contact approaches. Anyone know of a 121 carriers ops specs that allow these? I don't.

Its been a long time now, but I think when I was at Colgan we could shoot contact approaches. I even remember being able to go VFR if you could get the dispatcher to agree to do it VFR, we could also cancel IFR while still in the air and often did while going into most of the smaller outstations.

At my current airline we can't do any of that. Shoot we can't even shoot NDB apps anymore, or do circ apps when the wx is below VMC, or even shoot a vis app if the tower is closed. So I don't know if Colgan is "crazy" or if my new place is conservative to what most other airlines out there do.
 
Its been a long time now, but I think when I was at Colgan we could shoot contact approaches. I even remember being able to go VFR if you could get the dispatcher to agree to do it VFR, we could also cancel IFR while still in the air and often did while going into most of the smaller outstations.

At my current airline we can't do any of that. Shoot we can't even shoot NDB apps anymore, or do circ apps when the wx is below VMC, or even shoot a vis app if the tower is closed. So I don't know if Colgan is "crazy" or if my new place is conservative to what most other airlines out there do.

Even though they are 121, turbo prop operators have different rules than jet operators.
 
so whats the deals


twr vis is 1/2 mile
rvr touchdown 1/4 mile


legal (cat 1)??

RVR is reported in feet not sm so you will see something like RVR 1200. RVR is controlling only for the runway it is installed on not the entire airport. From what I've seen it is very rare (not sure if I've ever seen it even once) where an airport has RVR and is reporting it on all runways. If you look at approach plates you will see that there is a listed min for both vis in sm and RVR in feet. There are a lot of apps out there that have mins listed as 1/2sm or 1800 RVR. So lets say they are reporting vis of 1/2sm and 1R RVR is 1000. You can't shoot the ILS for 1R because the RVR reported for 1R is less than 1200. However if 1L is long enough to land on or if the wind will let you land on 19L (and it isn't reporting an RVR) then you can shoot the ILS for either of those runways because you have the 1/2sm.
 
What if there is No RVR?
Atis is calling 1/4 mile.
Tower Vis is 2miles.
Need 1/2 mile for the approach.
Part 121 operation.
 
Reference?
(I believe you, just for future arguments)

Tower employees are "certified weather observers" and are therefore legal to use as "official" sources of weather. Remember, that ATIS can be up to an hour old. Yes you are able to accept an approach
 
From

2-6-6. REPORTING WEATHER CONDITIONS
a. When the prevailing visibility at the usual point
of observation, or at the tower level, is less than
4miles, tower personnel shall take prevailing
visibility observations and apply the observations as
follows:
1. Use the lower of the two observations (tower
or surface) for aircraft operations.

2. Forward tower visibility observations to the
weather observer.
3. Notify the weather observer when the tower
observes the prevailing visibility decrease to less than 4 miles or increase to 4 miles or more.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


2-6-7. DISSEMINATING WEATHER
INFORMATION
TERMINAL. Observed elements of weather information shall be disseminated as follows:
a. General weather information, such as “large
breaks in the overcast,” “visibility lowering to the
south,” or similar statements which do not include
specific values, and any elements derived directly
from instruments, pilots, or radar may be transmitted to pilots or other ATC facilities without consulting the weather reporting station.
b. Specific values, such as ceiling and visibility,
may be transmitted if obtained by one of the
following means:
1. You are properly certificated and acting as
official weather observer for the elements being reported.

NOTE
USAF controllers do not serve as official weather
observers.
2. You have obtained the information from the
official observer for the elements being reported.
3. The weather report was composed or verified
by the weather station.
4. The information is obtained from an official
Automated Weather Observation System (AWOS) or
an Automated Surface Observation System (ASOS).




These two sections seem to contradict each other, however it seems that if they state the visibility, then they have been certificated, and are acting as the official observer for the elements being reported.

Source: http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/at_orders/media/ATC.pdf
 
Takeoff and Landing requirements use surface visibilty reports, either in RVR or SM. If RVR is reported, it is controlling for the operation in question. The tower vis report (@75'AGL) is just to give operators a better understanding of the actual conditions, but doesn't override the reported vis (RVR+SM)
 
Takeoff and Landing requirements use surface visibilty reports, either in RVR or SM. If RVR is reported, it is controlling for the operation in question. The tower vis report (@75'AGL) is just to give operators a better understanding of the actual conditions, but doesn't override the reported vis (RVR+SM)


I always thought it could override the reported visibility except for RVR. It is coming from a certified weather observer.
 
I always thought it could override the reported visibility except for RVR. It is coming from a certified weather observer.
Nope. Like I said before, tower vis is reported at 75' AGL. Most runways are about 75' below that. If you are operating on a runway, RVR or reported surface vis are the only two things that can meet a takeoff/landing ops spec. Only an updated surface observation can override a surface observation.
 
If the tower controller is the official weather observer on the field, then the prevailing visibility from that location is whats reported on the METAR/ATIS.

However, if the tower says "tower visibility xxxx", that's just an advisory thing until the surface observation is updated.

In the mean time, you have to use the lower of the tower visibility or surface observation.

Is that right?
 
ATIS/AWOS/METAR is king unless you have an RVR for the particular piece of pavement you are using.

Tower visibility is meaningless in legalities.

Quit making it hard.

Gup
 
At the 121 airlines I've been at(3) none were authorized to do contact approaches. Anyone know of a 121 carriers ops specs that allow these? I don't.

ALG used to allow contact aprroaches, but their FOM required VFR mins at the aerodrome to accept the request the approach.
 

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