Two questions on holds

[BoDEAN]

1. Heading 085 hold on 045 radial Left turns what entry?


2. 022 radial inbound hold on the 270 radial what entry?


I'm guessing 1. Direct and 2. Teardrop

 

[Amish RakeFight]

1. Heading 085 hold on 045 radial Left turns what entry?


2. 022 radial inbound hold on the 270 radial what entry?


I'm guessing 1. Direct and 2. Teardrop

1) Teardrop

2) Direct (assuming right turns)

3) How are you flying an ERJ and not able to figure holds 101 out?

 

[BoDEAN]

I got my order messed up, meant tear / direct

We have fms my friend =P

 

[avbug]

Is "we have FMS, my friend" a secret shorthand for "I'm too lazy to figure it out like I should be doing?"

When given holding instructions, do like most do and draw the damn thing out on a napkin the chart, or the back of your hand. You don't need to figure it to the nearest degree, but glance at the drawing and you'll know which way to go. In general, turn the shortest way to the outbound leg,and then you have one minute to figure out how to do the entry (assuming it's been thrown at you nearly on top fo the fix). If you've got a minute or so before you arrive at the hold, you've got plenty of time to make an oval with your pen and know the entry.

Which entry you make isn't really important, so long as you stay on the proper side of the hold and get established.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

I got my order messed up, meant tear / direct

We have fms my friend =P

Using the FMS is fine and dandy, but for you as a professional pilot to come on a board and "guess" that it might be teardrop and/or direct looks pretty foolish. This isn't one of those grey areas or topics that can waffle back and forth. Proper hold entries can be found in a gazillion places. Literally. It's a black and white matter; with the exception of a +/-5 degree discretion when truly on the fence. An FO at Eagle asking what the correct entry is, looks kinda lame. Sorry. You could have easily glanced at an old text book or even googled this information.

Anyway, at this stage of the game you should be able to quickly eyeball the DG and figure it out in less than half a minute.

 

[Midnight Flyer]

BoDean,

I would be hesitant about asking questions like that on this particular message board. Even thought it's a little elementary, I know it was a legit question and regardless if you're supposed to know the answer or not, it's still a legit question that you had. I personally have no problem with you asking something like that.

This is an aviation message board and all types of questions should be welcome. Instead of simply giving you an answer, many of the people on this message board will rip you a new one instead of legitimately helping you.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

LOL.

I'm all for helping share information. But some things are as clear as black and white. It is more a matter of LAZINESS or LACK of UNDERSTANDING which has an FO for an airline asking about the correct entry - not a private pilot working on an instrument rating.

A question like that can EASILY be found in almost any aviation text book or the internet. All you need to know is the 110/70 split. No need to "guess" your answer. That just looks bad. How can you not be able to correctly locate this information yourself.

Well, that's what happens when a low timer gets hired. They freak out if the air gets bumpy and can't commit to memory proper entries. But hey, "I've got an FMS." :laugh:


So BoDEAN,

Are you still getting shook from all the ERJ's turbulence?



....and yeah, I'm having a bad day today. :uzi: :uzi: :uzi:

 

[Swass]

my guess is that Bo's having a couple of Barley Pops and wasn't thinking straight.

 

[avbug]

There's nothing wrong with asking the question. The smartass answer that followed it up might draw a little fire, though. When he asked about the entries, fine; he got answers. When he responded with "we have FMS, my friend," was what did it.

Most of us have FMS. We still figure the hold entries. Personally, I find it a whole lot easier to figure the hold entry by looking at the hold on the chart, than to put it in the box.

More to the point with the thread, if one has time to ask the question on the internet, one certainly has the time to pick up a pencil and draw it.

 

[gangdev]

Maybe I am having a total brain dump but isn't teardrop the answer for both those holds?

 

[WabiSabi]

Maybe I am having a total brain dump but isn't teardrop the answer for both those holds?

The second one is actually borderline between teardrop and direct. Personally, I would do the teardrop.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

**correction**

OKAY WAIT. I just realized something.

My MISTAKE. Apologies.


1) Teardrop

2) Teardrop (NOT direct as previously stated)

3) I misread the headings. I was having a bad day. sorry for the harsh comment.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

yes, my foot is in the mouth.

 

[siucavflight]

Ha, just funny that you are a professional pilot and cat figure out a hold entry!
But yes you are correct
Teardrop
Direct

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Ha, just funny that you are a professional pilot and cat figure out a hold entry!
But yes you are correct
Teardrop
Direct

That's actually not correct.

It's actually:
1) Teardrop
2) Teardrop


I initally misread his question and answered incorrectly too. He uses a heading in the first example and then an inbound radial in the second. This threw me off and changes the answer. Maybe the OP himself is confused. If you are on a *heading* of 022 - the answer for the second question would be DIRECT. But the second question is not a heading but rather the inbound radial of 022 which (assuming no wind) would be a 202 heading, making it a TEARDROP entry.

 

[cr7driver]

What does it matter, really?? Stay on the protected side of the hold. Thats all the FEDS say anyway.

 

[avbug]

True enough. Look at the quickest, easiest way (which is why drawing it helps), and enter. You don't need to split degrees to do that. Once you enter, you've got a minute to figure out how to get turned around which is why turning the shortest way to the outbound leg and then timing a minute gets you into the hold the fastest and the easiest. After that, you need to make one more turn in a minute (or minute and a half, as the case may be)...this gives you the time to figure the rest out. Easy. Do whatever hold entry works best for you. It just doesn't matter.

 

[WabiSabi]

True enough. Look at the quickest, easiest way (which is why drawing it helps), and enter. You don't need to split degrees to do that. Once you enter, you've got a minute to figure out how to get turned around which is why turning the shortest way to the outbound leg and then timing a minute gets you into the hold the fastest and the easiest. After that, you need to make one more turn in a minute (or minute and a half, as the case may be)...this gives you the time to figure the rest out. Easy. Do whatever hold entry works best for you. It just doesn't matter.

Agreed. However, some examiners or check airman are sticklers to the AIM recommendations to varying degrees. badump bump!:laugh: (I swear the pun was not my original intent! it just happened)

 

[time builder]

Agreed. However, some examiners or check airman are sticklers to the AIM recommendations to varying degrees. badump bump!:laugh: (I swear the pun was not my original intent! it just happened)

So true, its the examiners and check airmen you have to please most, ATC could care less as long as you stay on the safe side and within the confines of a hold. Heck, if I'm 5 degrees on the parallel side (as opposed to the teardrop) I'll still go teardrop, it's just easier.

Or, as one of my classmates said, any entry can be a direct entry depending on the bank angle you're willing to use.

 

[avbug]

I don't believe I've ever had a check airman question my call on a hold. I might say "it's a parallel, but I don't like parallels, and am flying a teardrop," just to verbalize it. Or I might just say "we'll do a teardrop." Take charge as PIC and don't say "I think this one looks okay. Is that right?" I think the check airman is far more concerned with the safety of the operation than splitting a degree.

If the check airman is harping over a split degree in which entryis used, then his or her focus is all wrong, and I tend to think the applicant is being a little too submissive. Take charge, tell them what you intend to do. Chances are if you're decisive in your action and are clearly confident and able to do so, you won't be questioned if it's done safely and professionally.

The person you really want to bounce it off is the person in the other seat. If the check airman is behind you and you've got a right seater or left seater accompanying your checkride then decide on your hold and then show it to the FO or Captain...ask them if they agree. I've been straightened out before by a sharp eyed cohort; that's CRM.