Two questions on holds

[cr7driver]

What does it matter, really?? Stay on the protected side of the hold. Thats all the FEDS say anyway.

 

[avbug]

True enough. Look at the quickest, easiest way (which is why drawing it helps), and enter. You don't need to split degrees to do that. Once you enter, you've got a minute to figure out how to get turned around which is why turning the shortest way to the outbound leg and then timing a minute gets you into the hold the fastest and the easiest. After that, you need to make one more turn in a minute (or minute and a half, as the case may be)...this gives you the time to figure the rest out. Easy. Do whatever hold entry works best for you. It just doesn't matter.

 

[WabiSabi]

True enough. Look at the quickest, easiest way (which is why drawing it helps), and enter. You don't need to split degrees to do that. Once you enter, you've got a minute to figure out how to get turned around which is why turning the shortest way to the outbound leg and then timing a minute gets you into the hold the fastest and the easiest. After that, you need to make one more turn in a minute (or minute and a half, as the case may be)...this gives you the time to figure the rest out. Easy. Do whatever hold entry works best for you. It just doesn't matter.

Agreed. However, some examiners or check airman are sticklers to the AIM recommendations to varying degrees. badump bump!:laugh: (I swear the pun was not my original intent! it just happened)

 

[time builder]

Agreed. However, some examiners or check airman are sticklers to the AIM recommendations to varying degrees. badump bump!:laugh: (I swear the pun was not my original intent! it just happened)

So true, its the examiners and check airmen you have to please most, ATC could care less as long as you stay on the safe side and within the confines of a hold. Heck, if I'm 5 degrees on the parallel side (as opposed to the teardrop) I'll still go teardrop, it's just easier.

Or, as one of my classmates said, any entry can be a direct entry depending on the bank angle you're willing to use.

 

[avbug]

I don't believe I've ever had a check airman question my call on a hold. I might say "it's a parallel, but I don't like parallels, and am flying a teardrop," just to verbalize it. Or I might just say "we'll do a teardrop." Take charge as PIC and don't say "I think this one looks okay. Is that right?" I think the check airman is far more concerned with the safety of the operation than splitting a degree.

If the check airman is harping over a split degree in which entryis used, then his or her focus is all wrong, and I tend to think the applicant is being a little too submissive. Take charge, tell them what you intend to do. Chances are if you're decisive in your action and are clearly confident and able to do so, you won't be questioned if it's done safely and professionally.

The person you really want to bounce it off is the person in the other seat. If the check airman is behind you and you've got a right seater or left seater accompanying your checkride then decide on your hold and then show it to the FO or Captain...ask them if they agree. I've been straightened out before by a sharp eyed cohort; that's CRM.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

I've been straightened out before by a sharp eyed cohort; that's CRM.

I hope everyone has had a humbling experience after being quite brazen about a decision. I know I have.

The advent of CRM has saved lives and certificates. Maybe not in this instance, but why can't we all be more open-minded and less thick-headed and dichotic when it comes to making decisions.

Please, for the love of christ, admit when you're wrong. You actually grow and are more respected when you do. Admitting your wrong (and understanding why) actually helps you learn. CRM is a wonderful thing. Being secure is also being secure in that you are human and don't know everything nor should you attempt to burden yourself with thinking you do. We all bring something different to the table. Listen to what others have to say and keep an open mind.

The old adage goes:

You don't know what you don't know.

 

[nosehair]

You don't know what you don't know.

...but ain't we got fun? (badump bump):nuts:

 

[SNAFU22]

Remember this acronym "NDB TOP" Draw the hold, and put a line through it at 70 degrees. This gives you the "Nose" and "Body" of the hold. Determine where you are in relationship to the hold. On your current heading where will you be after crossing the fix.

Nose =
Direct entry
Body =
Teardrop entry
Outside=
Parallel entry

Our FMZ 2000 does everything for us and thats great. Although when I'm bouncing along in a C172 the technology isn't in the plane. Nice to have good ole' basic skills.

Hopes This Helps.