Two IAP questions

[bobbysamd]

Racetrack course reversals

Sorry to dig this thread up, but I had one question. You say cross the fix 2 times? How about a direct entry?

It's the same as any holding pattern. No matter what kind of entry you use for holding, you always cross the fix (and then do the five Ts).

In a racetrack course reversal, you still cross the IAF same as you would cross a holding fix. And, once you've reversed course by way of the racetrack, the IAF is then the FAF. Hence, you cross it twice.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Sorry to dig this thread up, but I had one question. You say cross the fix 2 times? How about a direct entry?

Even then. The typical hold-in-lieu is lined up with the inbound leg of the hold being on on and in the same direction as the final approach course.

Maybe I'm not picturing what you are thinking. Here's a good depiction of the racetrack turn. How would you make a direct entry into the hold and not =have to= cross it a second time?

http://bathursted.ccnb.nb.ca/vatcan/fir/moncton/WeeklyTopics/Archives/20030713/ProcedureTurn2.gif

 

[Crizz]

If you're established inbound before the IAF.

??

 

[100LL... Again!]

Unless you are on vectors or a NoPT route, you must cross the fix twice for a racetrack course reversal.

Even if you are perfectly lined up with the inbound course when cleared direct to the VOR, you have no choice but to make a direct entry - cross the VOR (IAF), turn outbound for 1 min, turn to intercept, cross the VOR again (FAF) and continue to the MAP.

Reread my last post for a big caution on looking at the missed aproach holding pattern for anything other than AFTER the missed.


For example:

Assume a hypothtical approach - VOR 36

Suppose this approach has a normal procedure turn depiction on the west side ofthe course. In theory, you fly out on the 180 radial, turn to 225 deg, fly for a minute, turm to 045, reintercept the 360 radial and ross the FAF. So much we already know.


Suppose that the missed approach hold is published on the EAST side, in other words RIGHT TURNS.


You MAY use a holding pattern-type entry for a course reversal.

The question: Do you make the entry on the east or west side of the course?


Answer: West.

The fact that the MISSED hold is on the east has NO meaning as it pertains to course reversals.





Suppose the missed approach has a hold on the OPPOSITE side.

 

[minitour]

Sorry to dig this thread up, but I had one question. You say cross the fix 2 times? How about a direct entry?

Check me if I'm wrong here, but if you were entering direct....you wouldn't be reversing course...so why bother as long as you've been cleared for the approach?

Say you've been given an EFC time and you're waiting for that timeso you hold there...correct?

Or you've lost communications...you hold there...correct?

But if you've been told "Maintain X Until established Cleared VOR Y approach"...why the need to cross that fix twice...just get established inbound, cross the fix, descend to your MDA or whatever you've got...correct?

 

[Lead Sled]

Thanks for all your answers. Everything that has been said clears things up immensely.

There are a couple of books that I highly recommend for new IR pilots...
Instrument Flying by Taylor and Weather Flying by Buck. You can probably find both of those books at most of the larger book stores or on line. They're both excellent reads and will go a long way towards helping you to understand how to fly IFR in the real world.

Lead Sled

 

[100LL... Again!]

You gotta do the entry even if you are lined up perfectly.

Two reasons:

1) There is no legal relief from the requirement to do the reversal, even if you are pefectly lined up. In other words, it is not permissible for the VOR to be both IAF AND FAF at the same time - you gotta cross it twice. Seems sill, but it ties into #2...

2) Suppose you are lined up perfectly but are 800 feet above the inbound altitude? Without the 'remain within 10nm' tht is on the profile view of the plate, how do you know when you can go down to the inbound altitude? If you wait until you hit the VOR, you got an extra 800 to lose.

Can you rephrase the questions from your previous post and PM them?
I'll do my best to answer.

 

[midlifeflyer]

If you're established inbound before the IAF.

??

Ah, I understand.

100LL has it exactly right. But the third reason is that's what the rules say.

If you are on vectors to final or are doing the full approach but coming in from a feeder, fix, route or sector that is marked "NoPT", then the racetrack is irrelevant.

Otherwise, if you are cleared for the full approach, yes, you have to enter the hold and cross the fix twice, even if you are on the inbound course before the racetrack fix.

 

[Crizz]

Even with as much BS as flies on this board, it can still be useful.

Thanks for the responses guys.