Two IAP questions

[groundpointsix]

Question 1: OK, according to the ground school I took for my instrument rating, if a course reversal is shown in boldface a pilot is required to fly it if not on vectors, DME arc, etc. No one I've asked has disputed that point. Today, I flew a training flight over to Parkersburg, WV in preperation for my checkride. First shot the ILS to runway 3 followed by the VOR 21. Our missed approach instruction was "climb and maintain 2,800, direct to the VOR, cleared VOR 21 report VOR outbound and inbound" Simple enough. So we're approaching the VOR from the south, brief the VOR approach and determine that the racetrack course reversal requires a teardrop entry. As I brief the approach to my instructor he tells me that we don't have to fly the whole racetrack, that the entry suffices for having flown the whole pattern. Is that correct? If the racetrack is mandatory, then why have I just flown a teardrop reversal? Is that legal? I flew the same thing in an FTD with another instructor and he agreed with me that the whole pattern needed to be flown. I've got my checkride next week and this is the normal flight for the DE. I don't want to bust because of this.
Here's the VOR 21 approach if would clarify what I'm asking
http://download.aopa.org/iap/20030124/ne4of4/pkb_vor_rwy_21.pdf

Question 2
Here's the plate for NDB 25 @ UNI (Athens, OH)
http://download.aopa.org/iap/20030124/ec2of3/uni_ndb_rwy_25.pdf
Again, the course reversal in bold. However, I've been told by multiple instructors, including the DE/Chief instructor, that you can fly the holding pattern published for the missed approach in lieu of doing the 180^ turn, attempting to intercept the bearing outbound and flying the barb. I'll agree it's easier so long as you don't mind having to decend faster to reach the MDA, but is it truly legal or is this a myth that was created so that pilots arriving from the east can save themselves some effort?

Thanks everyone. I feel like I know this stuff cold and could pass my ride easily, but it's little inconsistencies like these that make me start to doubt myself

 

[mike1mc]

In regards to question 1, the course reversal is mandatory, but not a entire lap in the holding pattern, just a course reversal. A teardrop entry into the pattern in order to intercept the inbound course would suffice.

In question 2, again a course reversal is required, and I would imagine that the holding pattern depicted would suffice as the course reversal as long as it is completed past the NDB, but within 10nm.

If I'm looking at these approaches wrong, someone please chime in. Good luck with your checkride!

 

[172driver]

1. Agreed, only the entry is required to make the course reversal. In fact, if you make the entry, cross the fix, and make another lap, you must advise ATC of your intentions. Not standard unless you need more time to become established on the inbound course or to lose altitude.

2. You can do the course reversal any way you like as long as you do it on the appropriate side of the course and within 10 NM. I personally would not do the racetrack. First, it is a nonstandard way of executing the PT and may raise the examiner's eyebrows. Second, it only leaves you one minute to become established on course inbound and lose 500 ft. Unless you nail the wind correction on the outbound leg of the hold, (a guess at best) you will use up that minute trying to get within 10 degrees of the inbound course, especially that close to the NDB. That leaves you at 3000 ft leaving the NDB inbound. Better, IMO, to go out a few miles, turn around, establish a reference heading, descend, get comfy, and stay ahead of the plane.

Either way is perfectly acceptable and legal.

 

[Kaman]

Hello,
In response to question numer one, unless you are being RADAR vectored to intercept the final approach course and celared for the approach you are required to execute the depicted course reversal.

Regards,

ex-Navy Rotorhead

 

[bobbysamd]

Procedure turns

Thanks for posting links to the approaches. It makes it easier to visualize the situation.

No. 1: I second all of the above. You do not have to fly a complete racetrack to effectuate a course reversal. Approaching from the south I, too, would have used a teardrop entry. Teaching point: Don't forget the five Ts as you cross the VOR.

No. 2: In the real world you could fly a long racetrack on the procedure turn side of the approach for course reversal. The rule is you must always remain within protected airspace. No one really cares how you reverse course. You can do a teardrop, 90/270, etc. But we're talking checkride. Therefore, if it were me I would cross the fix, go outbound for two minutes, etc., and fly a standard procedure turn to effectuate course reversal. Once more, don't forget the five Ts as you cross the NDB outbound. And, please, keep the volume of the ADF up.

While we're on the topic, one other point to review would be the AIM definition of "cleared for the approach."

Hope this helps some more. Good luck with this very important practical.

 

[groundpointsix]

Thanks for all your answers. Everything that has been said clears things up immensely.

 

[100LL... Again!]

When the course reversal is depicted as a 'barb' (normal PT depiction), ANY shape or size of course reversal may be accomplished. IF - IF you complete the course reversal within the limit on the chart. Usually says 'remain within 10 miles'.

If the course reversal is depicted as a teardrop or reacetrack, then it must be flown as published.

The following are ways that the course reversal may be eliminated:

1# NoPT route, such as a radial that leads FROM an IAF.

2# DME Arc

3# Radar Vectors


WARNING:

You can do a racetrack instead of a PT any time you want. HOWEVER, you must do it on the PT SIDE of the final approach course.

For example:
Suppose the ILS 36 to airport XYZ has the PT on the east side, but te missed approach hold was published on the west side of the final course. If you are doing a hold entry instead, you must STILL do it on the EAST side, EVEN IF the missed approach hold was published on the west side of the final approach course.

ATC protects the PT side ONLY while you fly the approach.

The fact that a missed approach hold is published on the final approach course has no bearing on whether you can do a racetrack style entry. Even if the missed approach holding point is at a VOR 20 miles away, you can do a racetrack entry.

Sorry - rambling post.

 

[tarp]

Been away for a while.

Ground.6:

You said: "However, I've been told by multiple instructors, including the DE/Chief instructor, that you can fly the holding pattern published for the missed approach in lieu of doing the 180^ turn"

I want to add emphasis to what 100LL just said.

The depicted "missed approach holding pattern" has NO bearing whatsoever on the Procedure turn. It is a mere coincidence that this "holding" pattern is on the same side as the PT barb. The "dotted line" holding pattern is for holding after the missed - the PT barb is for course reversal.

When you see the PT barb, you an perform the 45/180, the 80/260 or a racetrack entry as long as it stays on the protected side of the approach (AIM 5-4-8).

For your flight test, I would recommend that you perform the PT as depicted on a Jeppesen chart, displaying to the DE that you have a complete grasp of IFR procedures.

 

[100LL... Again!]

tarp is right here-

Don't do anything out of the ordinary on a checkride, unlessyou enjoy 'splainin' stuff.

 

[aldassy]

My two cents.
I use the acronym SHARP to determine wether to execute a preocedure turn. You do NOT have to execute a procedure turn if:

Straight in, cleared as such by ATC
Holding in lieu of a PT
Arcing to Final
Radar Vectored
Published NO PT.


Any thoughts?

 

[jdog78]

I think it confuses some pilots when a holding pattern is depicted on the approach plate. For clarity, when I see a racetrack pattern associated with the approach procedure, I view it as a course reversal rather than a hold...you're not really holding unless you have to go missed and hold in the pattern.

-j

 

[172driver]

Aldassy,

It is a good acronym and one I was taught in instrument training. However, the regs are very clear about when you may not execute a PT. S, H, and A are not found there so I refuse to teach it to my students.

In fact, a while ago, people on this board were saying that you may not execute the straight in even if cleared to do so by ATC. You must receive a vector. I don't really buy it but the opinion is out there and is a strict interpretation of the regs. Avbug may have a say on this one...

Hold in lieu is a course reversal so why say you don't need to do a PT when published as such? It is a PT.

Nothing says anywhere that a PT is not required when on an arc. All arcs I have seen are published NoPT. If it weren't, I would execute the reversal.

Seems a lot easier to just memorize the 3 things listed in the regs.

You may not execute a PT if:

1. Published NoPT
2. Radar vectors
3. Timed approaches

Now, I have a question for you all. Many GPS approaches start at an IAF and extend straight in through the FAF and the MAP. No T and no published reversal. Just a straight final approach course. How on earth do you reverse course if coming from the airport side and cleared direct to the IAF?
http://download.aopa.org/iap/20030320/se3of4/orl_gps_rwy_25.pdf

A second question. Many GPS approaches have a hold in lieu at the IAF but no published NoPT sectors. If cleared direct to the IAF from almost straight out, I still have to execute the PT right? Of course ATC doesn't expect this. Talked to the controllers and the FSDO and they agreed that the PT was only authorized when making more than a 90 degree turn to final. Makes sense but they could show me nothing to back it up.
http://download.aopa.org/iap/20030320/se3of4/orl_gps_rwy_7.pdf

 

[jdog78]

The GPS approach is just like any other approach. The first plate you showed said a procedure turn is not authorized so approach probably won't vector you from the airport side to begin with. Also, if you're being vectored to final on the second approach, you don't have to do the PT, but if they clear you for the full approach, then I would do the procedure turn, even though it seems kinda silly to reverse course when you're already set up for a straight in.

-j

 

[100LL... Again!]

To clarify:

#1 When a 'barb-style' PT is published:

Any type of reversal can be made, if on the indicated side and within the specified outbound limit, usually (BUT NOT ALWAYS!) 10nm. Do not look at the 10nm circle to determine this. Look at the profile view where the PT altitude is printed.


#2 When a ractrack entry is published:

You must fly a entry procedure. A trip around the pattern is neither required OR AUTHORIZED. Essentially, you will cross the fix 2 times. Once as an IAF, once as an FAF. Again, entry only, not an actual lap around the reacetrack. Outbound limit is usually 1min, but can be different. Again, check the profile view.


#3 When a teardrop reversal is published:

Typically found near military airports, but not always. These must be flown as published.

 

[Crizz]

#2 When a ractrack entry is published:

You must fly a entry procedure. A trip around the pattern is neither required OR AUTHORIZED. Essentially, you will cross the fix 2 times. Once as an IAF, once as an FAF. Again, entry only, not an actual lap around the reacetrack. Outbound limit is usually 1min, but can be different. Again, check the profile view.

Sorry to dig this thread up, but I had one question. You say cross the fix 2 times? How about a direct entry?

 

[bobbysamd]

Racetrack course reversals

Sorry to dig this thread up, but I had one question. You say cross the fix 2 times? How about a direct entry?

It's the same as any holding pattern. No matter what kind of entry you use for holding, you always cross the fix (and then do the five Ts).

In a racetrack course reversal, you still cross the IAF same as you would cross a holding fix. And, once you've reversed course by way of the racetrack, the IAF is then the FAF. Hence, you cross it twice.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Sorry to dig this thread up, but I had one question. You say cross the fix 2 times? How about a direct entry?

Even then. The typical hold-in-lieu is lined up with the inbound leg of the hold being on on and in the same direction as the final approach course.

Maybe I'm not picturing what you are thinking. Here's a good depiction of the racetrack turn. How would you make a direct entry into the hold and not =have to= cross it a second time?

http://bathursted.ccnb.nb.ca/vatcan/fir/moncton/WeeklyTopics/Archives/20030713/ProcedureTurn2.gif

 

[Crizz]

If you're established inbound before the IAF.

??

 

[100LL... Again!]

Unless you are on vectors or a NoPT route, you must cross the fix twice for a racetrack course reversal.

Even if you are perfectly lined up with the inbound course when cleared direct to the VOR, you have no choice but to make a direct entry - cross the VOR (IAF), turn outbound for 1 min, turn to intercept, cross the VOR again (FAF) and continue to the MAP.

Reread my last post for a big caution on looking at the missed aproach holding pattern for anything other than AFTER the missed.


For example:

Assume a hypothtical approach - VOR 36

Suppose this approach has a normal procedure turn depiction on the west side ofthe course. In theory, you fly out on the 180 radial, turn to 225 deg, fly for a minute, turm to 045, reintercept the 360 radial and ross the FAF. So much we already know.


Suppose that the missed approach hold is published on the EAST side, in other words RIGHT TURNS.


You MAY use a holding pattern-type entry for a course reversal.

The question: Do you make the entry on the east or west side of the course?


Answer: West.

The fact that the MISSED hold is on the east has NO meaning as it pertains to course reversals.





Suppose the missed approach has a hold on the OPPOSITE side.

 

[minitour]

Sorry to dig this thread up, but I had one question. You say cross the fix 2 times? How about a direct entry?

Check me if I'm wrong here, but if you were entering direct....you wouldn't be reversing course...so why bother as long as you've been cleared for the approach?

Say you've been given an EFC time and you're waiting for that timeso you hold there...correct?

Or you've lost communications...you hold there...correct?

But if you've been told "Maintain X Until established Cleared VOR Y approach"...why the need to cross that fix twice...just get established inbound, cross the fix, descend to your MDA or whatever you've got...correct?

 

[Lead Sled]

Thanks for all your answers. Everything that has been said clears things up immensely.

There are a couple of books that I highly recommend for new IR pilots...
Instrument Flying by Taylor and Weather Flying by Buck. You can probably find both of those books at most of the larger book stores or on line. They're both excellent reads and will go a long way towards helping you to understand how to fly IFR in the real world.

Lead Sled

 

[100LL... Again!]

You gotta do the entry even if you are lined up perfectly.

Two reasons:

1) There is no legal relief from the requirement to do the reversal, even if you are pefectly lined up. In other words, it is not permissible for the VOR to be both IAF AND FAF at the same time - you gotta cross it twice. Seems sill, but it ties into #2...

2) Suppose you are lined up perfectly but are 800 feet above the inbound altitude? Without the 'remain within 10nm' tht is on the profile view of the plate, how do you know when you can go down to the inbound altitude? If you wait until you hit the VOR, you got an extra 800 to lose.

Can you rephrase the questions from your previous post and PM them?
I'll do my best to answer.

 

[midlifeflyer]

If you're established inbound before the IAF.

??

Ah, I understand.

100LL has it exactly right. But the third reason is that's what the rules say.

If you are on vectors to final or are doing the full approach but coming in from a feeder, fix, route or sector that is marked "NoPT", then the racetrack is irrelevant.

Otherwise, if you are cleared for the full approach, yes, you have to enter the hold and cross the fix twice, even if you are on the inbound course before the racetrack fix.

 

[Crizz]

Even with as much BS as flies on this board, it can still be useful.

Thanks for the responses guys.