TWA ALPA lawsuit?

[XTW]

Kugel, see PMs

X

 

[Kugelblitz]

Again, I'm still waiting for the APA to merge with ALPA, you think maybe in another ten years it will happen?!?! How would you say the Ozark pilots were treated when they merged with TWA, fair and equitable in your eyes?

APA played ALPA like the amateurs they were/are on this. I am amazed and horrified at how they did it, and I won't go any further on this for now because there is litigation pending. But it was a work of art. Sometime down the road, I will tell what I know of it. It may already be on the forums somewhere.

I don't think the Ozark/TWA thing was done very well at all. I flew with primarily Ozark pilots and these guys were truly the best in the business. Keep in mind that the brunt of the fallout of TWA/AA involved pilots that had nothing to do with that integration.

Using your logic, most Delta pilots should have lost their jobs because of what happened with Pan Am. I wonder if the ALPA crackpipe people remember that one? You know, where the Pan Am Alpa leadership made sure they got typed on the aircraft that they knew (but not the greater pilot population at Pan Am) would survive the merger and thus those pilots retain their jobs? WE ARE ALPA.

 

[Kugelblitz]

Kugel, see PMs

X

I'll stop. Sorry, but these non-involved, 30-something, narcissistic, know-it-alls really get under my skin.

I will stop.

 

[Kharma Police]

Using your logic, most Delta pilots should have lost their jobs because of what happened with Pan Am. I wonder if the ALPA crackpipe people remember that one? You know, where the Pan Am Alpa leadership made sure they got typed on the aircraft that they knew (but not the greater pilot population at Pan Am) would survive the merger and thus those pilots retain their jobs? WE ARE ALPA.

You are referring to the PAN AM, "Dirty 30", which were mostly management pilots, nice try but I know my history too.

 

[CitationLover]

Prater sucks. Boy that Randy Babbitt is being so helpful in his position to ACTUALLY do something. Just goes to show leadership can be bought quite easily.

 

[St. Nic]

SWA and AMR pilots have much stronger Union principles. Those real Unions care about you and not about Mesa.

M

YOu forgot about us USAir pilots! WE're in this togehter you know! USAPA is flying it's own flight plan

 

[AceCrackshot]

For those scoring at home, that would be kugelblitz 3, Rez 0.

 

[jonjuan]

For those scoring at home, that would be kugelblitz 3, Rez 0.

I think Rez has a negative score.

 

[AC560]

As usual the issue with pilot pay and benefits is to do with everything other then pilots themselves.

You guys are a managements wet dream and don't even know it.

 

[Neubyfly]

No reason to get upset, Rez. These idiots aren't going to cost you a dime, because their lawsuit is completely without merit. They'll waste incredible amounts of their own money on legal fees, and then they'll be left with nothing to show for it. Just like the RJDC wankers.

PLC:

Did you pay for training at Gulfstream?

 

[AeroDork]

PLC:

Did you pay for training at Gulfstream?

I think we all know the answer to that question. But for those who are late getting here yes, yes he did.

But it's ok now he regrets doing it. And he works oh so hard at alpa to atone.

 

[Kugelblitz]

You are referring to the PAN AM, "Dirty 30", which were mostly management pilots, nice try but I know my history too.

"Nice Try"? Okay. Your right, no ALPA pilots were screwed by ALPA National at Pan Am. You might just try asking a Pan Am pilot involved on the losing side of this issue their opinion, but, I suppose like those of us on the losing side of the TWA issue, what do we know?

Not nearly as smart as the folks on the outside wearing the latest Raybans and flying RJ's for $20/hour after purchasing the job from Flight Safety.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

No facts, simply emotional rhetoric.....

I'll reply to your entire post. ALPA National is a business just like any airline, and run by career minded, narcissistic, Prima Donna's - just like any airline.

So ALPA national functions to serve all pilot groups... not just yours or the TWA pilots?

What do you get for your dues every month? You get a glossy magazine that the afore mentioned Prima Donna's get pictured in doing "important" work like studying runway incursions or taxiway markings, too bad we don't have an FAA to do those things. Much of this work seems to be done at 4 and 5 star hotel's on weekend junkets supplied by your dues. At least you get a cool WE ARE ALPA sticker to put on the side of your flight bag.

What good is runway safety when the TWA MEC "screwed" over its pilots.

If you want to believe that incompetent ALPA leadership has nothing to do with the complete run-down of this industry then keep hitting the crackpipe. If you want to believe that the difference between ALPA staying solvent is a TWA lawsuit and not the fact that many pilot groups have large numbers vocally advocating leaving ALPA if they haven't already, again, go ahead.

More pilot groups have voted for ALPA.....

I suppose we should just let this one go? Let the fact that ALPA sold the TWA pilot group out for the hopes of getting the entire APA membership under their penumbra slide by and act like it didn't happen? It didn't affect you afterall, fellow narcissisist, so why the h#ll should you care? You and most of the un-affected, grimly interested bystanders have no idea of the hardship and pain that so many of my fellow former colleagues have experienced. And at the end of the day it wasn't justified, and certainly ALPA had a duty to defend TWA with all of it's available resources, not the mild petty interest it displayed. TWA was the first airline to ever strike against it's management for the sake of ALPA by the way (in the mid 1940's) and what did that get them?

This is cute.... suddenly your pain is much more vauable than anyone elses... insofar that ALPA National, despite the choices of the TWA MEC, should forget about policy and law and come to your career deathbed.....

I hold no malice towards APA, hell, I have an APA number. I paid my dues to the union right up to the day I got furloughed. I always respected the fact that their union did what it could to protect and defend the job's of their membership extant at the time of the list integration. If ALPA had done the same for us, then fine. But the fact is, our TWA MEC was essentially working alone on this issue, and all ALPA National did is what it always does, provide a lot of lip service while it pursues it's own ulterior motives. All that 2/3 of the TWA pilot group got out of this whole TWA/AA thing was a recall number that isn't worth the paper it is printed on. We will never get recalled, and I have heard that there are intrigues afoot to rescind those recall rights anyway. That is unsubstantiated by any thing official, but it wouldn't suprise me.

Classic.... when the MEC's want to be left alone, ALPA national is a hinderance, when MEC's don't have the answer, then ALPA stinks because it won't cater to the MEC....

Something about cake and eating it too?

As far as you or future pilot's paying our lawsuit, won't happen. There won't be an ALPA for them to join. Hopefully, they will have an effective pilot's union to join that won't just take them for their money and placate their little ego's with ariticles talking about "how important pilot's are" or "the hero in the cockpit".

More factual demise of ALPA....

Maybe the next generation of pilots will actually have a union that does something to better the industry and the work place like Dave Behncke envisioned and his union originally did.

Not that you did anything or are doing something to ensure such a union...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You don't fund your mistakes, you fund hotel get-a-ways for ALPA leadership or finance their trip drops so they don't have to fly in bad weather. Perhaps you personally benefit from this and don't want to see it ruined?

You want what you want and you want it now......

Grandpa always said life is not fair......

Seems like you should be mad at free enterprise...you know, "the Market". (I love the market, it creates and destroys..... like a Hollywood movie....)

TWA was doing poorly operationally, (ALPA's fault??).... AMR took over.....

So how should have the TWA MEC handled this....

Start with the TWA pilots waiving its CBA on the intergration....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

APA played ALPA like the amateurs they were/are on this. I am amazed and horrified at how they did it, and I won't go any further on this for now because there is litigation pending. But it was a work of art. Sometime down the road, I will tell what I know of it. It may already be on the forums somewhere.

Maybe we can sit around the fire and you 'school' the youngins

Using your logic, most Delta pilots should have lost their jobs because of what happened with Pan Am. I wonder if the ALPA crackpipe people remember that one? You know, where the Pan Am Alpa leadership made sure they got typed on the aircraft that they knew (but not the greater pilot population at Pan Am) would survive the merger and thus those pilots retain their jobs? WE ARE ALPA.

So it was the PAA leadership? I thought your issue was with ALPA National? If it was PAA ALPA, then could it also have been TWA ALPA?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I'll stop. Sorry, but these non-involved, 30-something, narcissistic, know-it-alls really get under my skin.

So is this a factual issue or a bunch of know it alls that you allow to get under your skin?

I will stop.

not factual

 

[JoeMerchant]

The problem with ALPA is that it wants us all to be together as one, but we aren't really all together as one....Either we are ALL together, or we aren't...There is no half way as ALPA seems to want...

Rez talks about "cake and wanting to eat it"....That is exactly what ALPA's problem is....It makes promises it can't deliver with it's current structure..We can't all be "together" and "separate" at the same time...

 

[AA717driver]

Sorry, Rez. The TWA guys here have nothing to say.

TC

 

[TWA Dude]

TWA was doing poorly operationally, (ALPA's fault??).... AMR took over.....

(This isn't about any lawsuit so I can speak.)

My, how memories are short. TWA was doing very well operationally in 2000-2001. That's what CEO Compton knew how to do.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

(This isn't about any lawsuit so I can speak.)

My, how memories are short. TWA was doing very well operationally in 2000-2001. That's what CEO Compton knew how to do.

Financial problems began to resurface shortly afterward, and Trans World Airlines Inc. assets were acquired by American Airlines in April 2001

The ceremonial last flight was Flight 220 from Kansas City, Missouri, to St. Louis, with CEO Captain William Compton at the controls.

​

You are correct sir!

 

[FDJ2]

(This isn't about any lawsuit so I can speak.)

My, how memories are short. TWA was doing very well operationally in 2000-2001. That's what CEO Compton knew how to do.

I think the issue wasn't so much TWA's operational performance, but rather its poor financial performance. When TWA filed for BK in early 2001, a time when legacy airlines were posting record profits, TWA hadn't been able to post a profitable year since 1988.

http://www.kirkland.com/sitecontent.cfm?contentID=230&itemId=7640

TWA Bankruptcy

"As reported in News & Developments, TWA has filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy in conjunction with a takeover offer bid from American Airlines, Inc.

Under the proposed deal, American is to pay $500 million and assume around $3 billion of TWA's aircraft lease debts. In addition to this it is advancing $200 million in emergency financing to help get TWA through bankruptcy.

The agreement between TWA and American, which is the second-largest carrier in the United States, is subject to a number of conditions, one of which is approval by the Bankruptcy Court.

TWA hasn't turned a profit since 1988 and has filed for bankruptcy twice before. Reports suggest that the airline lost $115.1 million in the first nine months of 2000 after losing $353 million in 1999. Despite this, TWA was still, in 1999, the eighth-largest carrier, measured by passenger miles, in the United States. The company employs 20,000 staff, and American has pledged to offer jobs to all 17,600 unionized workers, including 2,300 pilots, and to some managers.

A bankruptcy hearing is scheduled for March 9.
Competing bids are required by February 28. If they exceed American's, American will be entitled to a break-up fee of $55 million. Two potential bidders are Jet Acquisitions Group Inc., which intends to keep TWA together along with its employees, with a bid of $1 billion, and Global Airlines Corporation, which has not yet announced a bid figure."

 

[Neubyfly]

I think we all know the answer to that question. But for those who are late getting here yes, yes he did.

But it's ok now he regrets doing it. And he works oh so hard at alpa to atone.

I thought so.

 

[DIAMONDDD]

I think we all know the answer to that question. But for those who are late getting here yes, yes he did.

But it's ok now he regrets doing it. And he works oh so hard at alpa to atone.

How anyone that paid for their training can ever champion the ALPA cause and talk about what is right/wrong with the profession I'll never know. Ten bucks. That's the amount it would take to get a new screen name here and pretend that you weren't one of the ones that help make the profession effing crappier. It would cost ten bucks to have at least a hint of credibility. People could always deduce that a new poster, with so few posts, popped up cheerleading for ALPA would be him, but there may be some small doubt. Either that, or get in a time machine a go back and make the right decisiion.

 

[TWA Dude]

You are correct sir!

Sarcasm noted. You said 'operational' not financial performance. Look up the difference if you know how.

 

[airlineworthy]

What is the dirty laundry?

1.3b. Wow... if you don't BK ALPA and thus get pennies on the dollar, then pilots not even born will fund your pay out. If the profession continues to decline then, less wages will be available to fund your payout.....

ALPA trying to raise wages, but if they spend time and money with your lawsuit that defeats the purpose..... it seems your litigation is biting the hands that feeds.

Too bad USAIR left ALPA, they have taken your money and ran!

What responsibilities does the TWA MEC accept.... waiving their LPP for example.... Also, if ALPA had a goal of bringing in house unions onto the fold, is that dirty laundry? What is the dirty laundry that you speak of...

Finally, were is the APA and AMR is all of this? It would seem AMR has more cash than ALPA....

You're such a tool for ALPO and the LEFT whiners.

 

[airlineworthy]

Sorry, Rez. The TWA guys here have nothing to say.

TC

Good move TC..

You know Rez is faxing this thread daily to the ALPO HQ. He's the kinda of little alpo youth that would do such a thing.

 

[Kalifornia]

The problem with ALPA is that it wants us all to be together as one, but we aren't really all together as one....Either we are ALL together, or we aren't...There is no half way as ALPA seems to want...

Rez talks about "cake and wanting to eat it"....That is exactly what ALPA's problem is....It makes promises it can't deliver with it's current structure..We can't all be "together" and "separate" at the same time...

Sure ALPA sucks, but you'd be better improving it then discarding it. Your other options are independent union, Teamsters, or no union. The Teamsters really make pilots look like bus drivers. Independent unions certainly can be effective if large enough as Southwest proves. You're not gonna like this: ASA does not have enough capital to form an independent union unless your dues were 5%. No union? Good luck. I've talked to a few ALPA officers and I think most are realistic that it's got it's downsides, but the grass is not greener on the other side. It's the particular MEC officers, the company, and the rest of your pilot group that you work for and their ethics that will guide most the ability to obtain the best professional work conditions possible. ALPA National is more of a universal lobbying group, a legal help group, and an insurance company with funds in case you go on strike.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Sure ALPA sucks, but you'd be better improving it then discarding it. Your other options are independent union, Teamsters, or no union. The Teamsters really make pilots look like bus drivers. Independent unions certainly can be effective if large enough as Southwest proves. You're not gonna like this: ASA does not have enough capital to form an independent union unless your dues were 5%. No union? Good luck. I've talked to a few ALPA officers and I think most are realistic that it's got it's downsides, but the grass is not greener on the other side. It's the particular MEC officers, the company, and the rest of your pilot group that you work for and their ethics that will guide most the ability to obtain the best professional work conditions possible. ALPA National is more of a universal lobbying group, a legal help group, and an insurance company with funds in case you go on strike.

Most pilots don't manage their expectations and think ALPA is their everything... in fact when they do nothing to further their own careers or expect others to volunteer while they enjoy personal time, suddenly when their careers come to a crashing halt, they have to blame someone... certainly not themselves... The company and govt doesn't care.... at least ALPA will listen.

When Aloha folded, suddenly a pilot wanted to know what ALPA was going to do for them. The real question is, what have you been doing to prepare your ALPA MEC for this contingency. Airlines mostly go away... few stay. The market demands winners and losers. Most of us are indifferent when a fellow pilot loses his job, but suddenly when its our own job, we want all the market protections, labor protections and insurance out there.... who is going to pay for that?

Keep in mind, a simple question was asked of who is going to pay for this... valid question of where the funds will come from.... from there this thread went south...