Tutt's Second Pilot Meeting Friday

[ASARJMan]

Anyone attend? Any comments? Same old song?

VOTED IN FAVOR

 

[WWEfan]

Yep, same old song and dance. They couldnt produce ASA's numbers that I asked for, but they had SkyWest's numbers. More about staying competitive with the industry average. Well, that average changes everytime a new contract is ratified so who is to say we wouldn't be competitive 2 or 3 years from now even if we got what we wanted.

 

[Sinca3]

who is to say we wouldn't be competitive 2 or 3 years from now even if we got what we wanted.

BINGO!!!!

 

[Redan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by WWEfan
More about staying competitive with the industry average. Well, that average changes everytime a new contract is ratified so who is to say we wouldn't be competitive 2 or 3 years from now even if we got what we wanted.

BINGO!!!!

I'll second that BINGO!

 

[JoeMerchant]

And we aren't getting the same old song and dance from ALPA? Why are we competing with our fellow "union brothers and sisters" in the first place. I don't like anymore than the rest of you, but I want to know what my bargaining agent that I pay almost 2% of my salary to is doing to change it. More task forces.... more scope reports..... more speeches from an overpayed President telling me how he feels my pain.

You can be mad at BL or CT, but they aren't calling the shots. The shots are being called by Delta and St. George. If the union can't see itself to unify and negotiate with the actual decision makers, then it doesn't really matter what anyone wants, management will continue to use the whipsaw. ALPA has failed plain and simple.

 

[shamrock]

"We're getting the same old song and dance from the Company."

"We're getting the same old song and dance from ALPA."

And finally, to complete our day, we're getting the same old song and dance from Joe.

Everyone happy now?

 

["GO AROUND"]

No,

When I win the powerball I'll be happy. Then I can buy ASA and run it how it should be run. LOL

 

[atrdriver]

You can be mad at BL or CT, but they aren't calling the shots. The shots are being called by Delta and St. George. If the union can't see itself to unify and negotiate with the actual decision makers, then it doesn't really matter what anyone wants, management will continue to use the whipsaw. ALPA has failed plain and simple.

DAL doesn't give a good flip what you or I get paid. They don't care what our costs are. All they care about is what price they pay us per seat. As long as they are paying what they want to pay they don't care if our profit margin is .05% or 50%. I don't feel the need to take a paycut so BL and CT can put my money into their pocket.

No, I don't think that ALPA's current proposal is realistic. But it's a lot closer to reality than the companies. When you go into a car dealer to buy a 30k car you don't tell the salesman you'll pay 35k for it, you tell him you'll pay 20k for it, and you find a place in the middle where you can get a good deal and the dealer can still make a profit. The company slapped their numbers on the table and walked away.

And as far as their talks, it really says something that when you ask them how they arrived at them that their answer is "we can't tell you that". If they want me to believe them, then they better figure out a way to tell me how they came up with them.

One of our old CP's asked CT why the company doesn't sit down at a table with ALPA and let the pilots ask both questions. That way if one were not telling the truth the other could call them on it. Guess what? The company is not interested in that idea. That tells me something also.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

I especially enjoyed the "Apples to Apples" Chart that they produced. Funny thing is, they only compared certain operational parts between Skywest and ASA to make their point.

Not quite "Apples to Apples" when you pick and choose what you want to compare.

PS Moderators, can we add a "shaking head" emoticon to the drop down list? It seems everytime I refer to management, that is the one emoticon that would fit perfect.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

deleted...wrong thread

 

[atlcrashpad]

Put it this way King Tutt had Tap shoes on.

 

[JoeMerchant]

No, I don't think that ALPA's current proposal is realistic. But it's a lot closer to reality than the companies. When you go into a car dealer to buy a 30k car you don't tell the salesman you'll pay 35k for it, you tell him you'll pay 20k for it, and you find a place in the middle where you can get a good deal and the dealer can still make a profit. The company slapped their numbers on the table and walked away.

Based on industry standard payrates, instructor pay, and Bfund retirement, I believe the company proposal is closer to the standard than our rates. Our 50 seat rates that we are asking for are more than the new 78 seat Northwest rates. I'm sorry, as much as I would like that rate, I don't think that is realistic. Both sides need to get back in the room and hammer this out. ALPA needs to understand that the pattern in "pattern bargaining" has been going backwards for the past 4 years.

 

[atrdriver]

ALPA needs to understand that the pattern in "pattern bargaining" has been going backwards for the past 4 years.

Well maybe it's time to stop that Joe. Yes, pattern bargaining has been going backwards, because companies have been LOSING MONEY. Are we losing money Joe? Are we even CLOSE to losing money? I didn't think so. And like I said, DAL doesn't give a good crap how much you or I make. They care about what the seat costs them, and how the service (to a MUCH lesser degree) is. Lets say every pilot here got a $3/hour raise. How much would that cost over a year? Less than $5M. I forget what ASA made last quarter, but I KNOW that they can afford that, while keeping the cost to DAL the same, and still making a tidy profit.

 

[atlcrashpad]

This message is hidden because JoeMerchant is on your ignore list.</SPAN>

Joe you got ta Go. Your union bashing is gettin' old. Stop drinking the Koolaid and support your fellow coworkers. We are looking for a Fair contract. No paycuts and QOL.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Well maybe it's time to stop that Joe. Yes, pattern bargaining has been going backwards, because companies have been LOSING MONEY. Are we losing money Joe? Are we even CLOSE to losing money? I didn't think so. And like I said, DAL doesn't give a good crap how much you or I make. They care about what the seat costs them, and how the service (to a MUCH lesser degree) is. Lets say every pilot here got a $3/hour raise. How much would that cost over a year? Less than $5M. I forget what ASA made last quarter, but I KNOW that they can afford that, while keeping the cost to DAL the same, and still making a tidy profit.

ACA was profitable all the way up until they lost the United contract. We are all vendors competing in the portfolio. Your profit can disappear very fast if you lose the contract.

As far as your figures, we are asking for far more than $5M per year, actually more than 5 times that amount. That is too much. Not that I don't want it, but just wanting something doesn't make it happen. We do have to compete with our fellow "union brothers" who are more than willing to undercut us. Sad but true.

 

[JoeMerchant]

This message is hidden because JoeMerchant is on your ignore list.</SPAN>

Joe you got ta Go. Your union bashing is gettin' old. Stop drinking the Koolaid and support your fellow coworkers. We are looking for a Fair contract. No paycuts and QOL.

You won't see this response since you have blocked me. I feel like Jack Nicholson -"Truth - You can't handle the truth". I don't like any koolaid. You seem to take double shots of the Herndon Koolaid.

 

[shamrock]

deletedhttp://www.wavlist.com/movies/023/liar-tailpipe.wav

 

[atrdriver]

ACA was profitable all the way up until they lost the United contract. We are all vendors competing in the portfolio. Your profit can disappear very fast if you lose the contract.

As far as your figures, we are asking for far more than $5M per year, actually more than 5 times that amount. That is too much. Not that I don't want it, but just wanting something doesn't make it happen. We do have to compete with our fellow "union brothers" who are more than willing to undercut us. Sad but true.

Unless I am mistaken, I already said that i thought that the initial ALPA numbers were too high. But, even if they were 5 times that amount, that is still quite a bit less per year than we made LAST QUARTER.

And the ACA pilots gave up the United contract to try to go it alone. You will notice that most were pretty happy about it at the time, and many probably still are happy that they tried. You seem to forget that Skywest can bid whatever they want to, regardless of what their or our costs are. It means a little less profit for them, not the loss of the contract.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Unless I am mistaken, I already said that i thought that the initial ALPA numbers were too high. But, even if they were 5 times that amount, that is still quite a bit less per year than we made LAST QUARTER.

That isn't true. The amount we are asking for would more than wipe out the net profit made last quarter. You aren't using net profit numbers, you are using the unions numbers which aren't net profit numbers. The only numbers that matter are net profit and net profit margin. Our net profit margin is about one third what it was in 1998.

 

[socony_air]

Hey Joe Merchant (JB)
Feel free to post that exact net margin figure for us then. Gotta source on that, besides CT, BL, et al. ??? I'm sure you didn't get it from the MEC since you are a named RJDC litigant & have an obvious anti-ALPA agenda. Anyone new to ASA who might not be aware of your role in suing our union should know what your real motivation is with this recent rash of posts. How much do you stand to personally profit if your suit is successful??? Care to post that figure?

Also, since you've recently posted about the inability of the CNC to give a dollar value of possible strike benifits, is it true your lawsuit against ALPA would rob from the same ALPA coffers that could be used to sustain pilots like the 1800 hard working men and women at ASA during their effort to earn a reasonable wage & improved working conditions?

I don't think I'm reaching in questioning your real motives. You have a personal crusade against ALPA national at all costs and you don't care if you cost the local MEC a few votes along the way. To you any black eye for ALPA would give you pleasure despite the best interest of the whole. You seem like a self-serving creep to me. I think that's why no one on here has bothered to respond to this most recent outburst from you. Not worth the effort.

 

[ASADFW7]

Joe, I suppose other pilots from ASA know who you are, I do not really care who you are. An ALPA representative is an elected offical who represents the pilots, not their personal interests or opinions. You sir have failed at your representation. The ASA pilot views are not based upon ALPA they are based on their personal relationship with the company. It is not the MEC that is driving the ship it is the pilots who want to be treated fairly. I personally do not want to strike, but I will vote yes, for fair respect. You can argue till you are blue in the face, but truthfully as professionals and adults, this is our time to negotiate and be heard. Now more then ever. Men stand up and say no more, we have had enough. Fair will come out of this, market rates, QOL, in the end will be there, with the strike vote first.

You can still speak your opinions, but you are polarizing your issues, and it is now just noise to many of us. You see somewhere out on line, you will find me going about my job, respecting my fellow workers, and keeping my mouth shut about this crap. I am ready for a strike, though it would hurt there are reasons that we will continue to negotiate, and it is not because two or three fellas are not prepared, it is because the body of pilots want improvements in the contract. Do you? And if we get those improvements are you going to ask to live and work under the old work rules, are you going to have the benifits of the improvements? You see risk and rewards, and standing up take courage. There is fear in the air, but men with principles fight for them. The principle right of a union is to negotiate. The two sides will come to an agreement. Men and women at ASA are not entitled to respect we have to earn it too. That is what this is about earning respect. I am not going to bash my company or complain in public, I am going to do my job, and support my union.

I read about one tenth or what you write. I agree in principle about negotiating in balance, however not with a low ball offer and used car salesmen selling us our next contract from the company. That is about as much of an insult you will hear from me, and it is probably a compliment.

 

[atrdriver]

That isn't true. The amount we are asking for would more than wipe out the net profit made last quarter. You aren't using net profit numbers, you are using the unions numbers which aren't net profit numbers. The only numbers that matter are net profit and net profit margin. Our net profit margin is about one third what it was in 1998.

Skywest's Net Income for last quarter was $34.59M. What we are asking for is not going to increase costs for this company by 34 million dollars. That would equate to a raise for each and every pilot at this company of over $19,000. That is just not true. And we are talking about a quarter for the company and a year for the pilots with those numbers. And, since you don't seem to be reading it when i have typed it in the past several posts, I don't believe that ALPA's initial proposal is realistic. It needs to be negotiated down to something that is fair. But I will tell you right now that fair does not equal a pay cuy.

 

[Grassstrippilot]

ACA was profitable all the way up until they lost the United contract.

Just to clarify, ACA didn't Loose the United contract. They (management) refused to accept the conditions that United wanted to impose on them. Make sure you know the whole story before citing it as a reference, because it would appear based on your comment you're missing some of the details.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Just to clarify, ACA didn't Loose the United contract. They (management) refused to accept the conditions that United wanted to impose on them. Make sure you know the whole story before citing it as a reference, because it would appear based on your comment you're missing some of the details.

Your correct. That was a poor choice of words. They were unwilling to meet the new demands of the brand. However my point stands, that is a dangerous game to play. The brands aren't willing to pay as much as they used to for RJ feed.

 

[John Pennekamp]

That isn't true. The amount we are asking for would more than wipe out the net profit made last quarter. You aren't using net profit numbers, you are using the unions numbers which aren't net profit numbers. The only numbers that matter are net profit and net profit margin. Our net profit margin is about one third what it was in 1998.

Wipe out the profit last quarter? The $23.8M ALPA is asking for is spread out over 4 years. Try to spin that one, Johnny Boy!

 

[Bizjet]

Wipe out the profit last quarter? The $23.8M ALPA is asking for is spread out over 4 years. Try to spin that one, Johnny Boy!

Joe can't understand that what we have on the table for pay and retirement was from our opening position nearly 4 years ago. He thinks we should negotiate with and against ourselves. His lack of negotiating skills is one of many reasons he was never allowed on the CNC. Some of the other reasons were his:

Lack of integerity

Lack of trust in him

Failure to accept majority rule

Short attention span

Taking him would mean having his older girl friend used as a constant leak of privy info.

Selective recall

Always trying to discredit the CNC Chairman

Close ties with management

And :beer:

 

[FlyFlyFly]

The only numbers that matter are net profit and net profit margin

I do not have a dog in this fight, but, in a capital intensive business like an airline, net profit is only one measure. It is a measure that is subject to a huge non-cash expense called depreciation. I can make a business generate no net profit if I depreciate my assets aggressively or write them off. You need to balance the look at Net Profit with Cash Flow and a good hard look at the balance sheet - particularly the year over year changes in the balance sheet and close reading of the notes accompanying those statements.

You also need to understand that Net Profit is an after tax number and expenses like wages, etc. are paid with before tax dollars. So the net effect of a $1.00 raise would hit the bottom line to the tune of roughly $0.88 once you grossed up to cover payroll taxes and netted corporate income tax savings.

 

[Tomct]

It is quite funny how JM goes on and on about how ASA can't afford our offer for pay and yet, last night in SLC there were 8 airplanes that SAT from 7 pm until 8 the next morning. Yeah, that is some SMART planning! Quite a chunk of cash just SITTING there and YET....they want pay cuts! Not Going to HAPPEN JOE!

 

[BuzzSaw]

Amen fly fly fly... There are many accounting tricks out there to help reduce Net Income. Yes, I took accounting in college... It is not all black and white. There is a lotta grey (but legal) out there.

Lets show solidarity with our MEC and let them do their jobs!!!

BL can have his stock options and Chuck can have his Delta retirement. Skywest can park every aeroplane out in the desert for all I care.

My knowledge, experience and professionalism costs something, $$$$.

Aviation Career Advice; Never depend on the airline for a living...
Start a side occupation now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Buzz Saw

 

[JoeMerchant]

Wipe out the profit last quarter? The $23.8M ALPA is asking for is spread out over 4 years. Try to spin that one, Johnny Boy!

Wrong, that $23.8M is first year increase in addition to what has already been agreed to. Try telling the truth for once.