Turned down a CAL job offer today

[Lear70]

I've not been called from CAL, but at the same time I completely see Pocono's point. Pay, no insurance, and a move to a city like Newark are my reasons for not pushing hard for CAL.

It would take somewhere around 10 to 11 years for me to go into positive numbers (to recover the cost for the first several years) to make the jump to CAL. At FedEx, UPS, or SWA, I would be into career earnings growth in the second year.

For a young pilot, the mainline guys on the board are correct. For a pilot in his late thirties to early forties, the math works out differently. CAL is obviously a better long term future, but the choice really hinges on how old you are when you make the jump and where you want to live.

And that's exactly why I'm starting to think about bailing the U.S. aviation market if our new contract isn't just *STELLAR* and the Midwest deal goes through, lengthening our upgrade times.

If you really want to fly internationally as a CA for a Legacy carrier, if you're not on board NOW at that carrier and you're pushing 40, you're going to have a hard time making it to widebody international CA before mandatory retirement.

Just a thought.

 

[On Your Six]

I've not been called from CAL, but at the same time I completely see Pocono's point. Pay, no insurance, and a move to a city like Newark are my reasons for not pushing hard for CAL.

It would take somewhere around 10 to 11 years for me to go into positive numbers (to recover the cost for the first several years) to make the jump to CAL. At FedEx, UPS, or SWA, I would be into career earnings growth in the second year.

For a young pilot, the mainline guys on the board are correct. For a pilot in his late thirties to early forties, the math works out differently. CAL is obviously a better long term future, but the choice really hinges on how old you are when you make the jump and where you want to live.

If this is a legit posting and the guy isn't flaming us, then I think he/she made a mistake. Sure, the first 6 months without insurance (and relatively low pay) is idiotic, but you can always get supplemental insurance. Consider it a six-month investment in your future... Need to take a long-term perspective.

Continental has a great fleet (787s on the way!), great worldwide routes, great pilots and a strong strategy going forward. If I were getting back into the 121 game, I would definitely consider CAL as a good long-term bet. Sure, Fedex/UPS would be great, but the only other pax carrier I would consider beyond CAL is Delta. If I had a Delta offer and a CAL offer I would probably choose Delta because I know a lot of happy people there now and Delta appears to have turned the corner financially. I could never do the 30 minute turns at SWA - 30 continuous years of multiple 30-minute turns would be difficult - but that's just me...

 

[nonstop]

I've not been called from CAL, but at the same time I completely see Pocono's point. Pay, no insurance, and a move to a city like Newark are my reasons for not pushing hard for CAL.

It would take somewhere around 10 to 11 years for me to go into positive numbers (to recover the cost for the first several years) to make the jump to CAL. At FedEx, UPS, or SWA, I would be into career earnings growth in the second year.

For a young pilot, the mainline guys on the board are correct. For a pilot in his late thirties to early forties, the math works out differently. CAL is obviously a better long term future, but the choice really hinges on how old you are when you make the jump and where you want to live.

I agree with Pocono and Fins. Some of you guys are way off base, and coming off quite irrational. I'd like to interview at CAL, and I'd probably go if hired and make a career of it. The earnings hit, however, isn't as temporary as many make it out to be. The financial hole you create isn't filled when your earnings simply catch up to what they were. I've been running some numbers and I think Fins numbers may even be on the low side as to how long it'd take to break even... especially considering the looming age 65 change that seems (unfortunately) inevitable in the next 5 years. Open skies seems like a certainty in the next 10 years as well, I don't think that will help the scenario.

If you think you're going to leave CAL, then I certainly wouldn't take the pay cut to go... because you'll never make the money back before you leave. Even for the 737 type, whats a 737 type cost, 8k? You're talking an initial 40k+ pay cut for an 8k type.

Just the unfortunate financial facts. This is assuming you've got 5+ years at one of the better (relatively speaking) regionals. Obviously a Great Lakes FO isn't going to use the same equation.

 

[Lear70]

Actually, Flight Training International in Denver is doing the 737 type for $4,500. Yeah, that's the full PIC type.

They just had a career fair with Southwest out in Vegas last month on the 20th, heard it was a great success, only 200 guys were there instead of the others where there's 400-500+ resumes trying to get face time.

I agree, IF you DEFINITELY PLANNED on leaving CAL and had a hard time making the money work, and you're currently making a decent living that you can LIVE with the REST OF YOUR CAREER, then stay put.

Otherwise, if you think that CAL could be a good long-term deal you could LIVE WITH, you're just plain stupid, and you can't fix that.

You never know what the future may bring, and history has taught us that it brings downturns, furloughs, and failed airlines. With Open Skies coming, that's only going to get worse in the next 5-7 years.

 

[GuppyWN]

I don't know where you work now but I'd guess you're going to look back and regret it.

This job is only as good as the next contract. AA gets a 30% pay raise and the race to the top is alive and well again.

Gup

 

[135fr8r]

As I've been told since the beginning of my aviation career, "don't get yourself locked into a certain job because your lifestyle requires X amount of income".

 

[Charlie Brown]

If this is for real and Pocono turned it down, I think he/she will regret it. As an XJT pilot, there is a large contingent of pilots there who think of themselves as at a career carrier. The company is good, the pay (for a regional) is good, people are cool, etc. Guys get comfortable and don't want to make a move. I have seen it first hand, and know several guys that passed flowing through to CAL back in the day. They would have gotten to keep their pay, bennies, etc. as well. As unfathomable as it may seem to some of you guys, there are plenty of folks (at XJT anyway) who think they are better off where they are. Personally, I have always thought they were nuts, but to each his own. I don't mean this as a slam to XJT guys, I am an alum and proud of it.

 

[RT8VA]

I know this is flamebait and I dont know why I cant resist but here goes. I left a regional job making 77K to come to cal where I will make just over 40 with per diem and pay (NO Bfund included since I cant spend that). Second year FO pay 80K here, with no upgrade that is already more then a captain on an rj when I made the 77 and 8 to 9 years seniority. Assuming a career FO which is laughable looking at our retirements even if you are 40 the break even point is no where near ten years. Most of the line holding captains that are new upgrades are 98 hires which is pretty quick taking into account the fact we did no hiring for four years.

I believe every one should stay where they want to and where makes them happy but I laugh every time I hear some one justify the reasons on the fact that a first year cal guy makes 25K, must not have taken math class in college. I dont know any one here who on first year makes under 35 and I will be over 40 and have picked up zero trips.

P.S. I have more then 400 peeps under me in less then a year and over 220 on the 737 in ewr so I guess some one thinks it is a good enough job to not quit.

 

[RT8VA]

My post by the way is in no ways meant to sway any ones opinion just to provide some information. Some people I really do believe come here for information still and should at least try to be informed of some facts, ie how much hiring is going on projected movement up seniority lists and pay issues. All information was based on current contract and hiring numbers that are occuring so if contract 08 changes those the author can not be responsible for changes to past post.

 

[dojetdriver]

Flame bait or not, his post about CAL being AQP and that having any bearing over a PIC type or not reek of somebody who is pretty much less than smart.

 

[Palomino]

most legacy carriers are operating under a 9/11 butchered contract. management took the supplied axe and chopped everything they could. some pilot groups swung back and kept some things off the chopping block.

some pilot groups threw the entire contract on the block and management made confetti of it. CAL pilots let that happen. i wasn't a CAL pilot then. i'm a CAL pilot now. the great majority of CAL pilots know the mistakes made and are prepared to slug out a new deal that is fair. our Union has finally tranformed from a management-intern position to one committed to the pilot group.

look for vast improvements on CAL's next deal. the current deal sucks more than a Tool Time-modified vacuum cleaner. i look forward to propelling my career and my company onward and upward. i'm encouraged by the efforts of our group going forward.

but i also understand if people don't wanna put up with it right now. i came because i got seniority in a hurry (500 #s below me in one year and growing) and good equipment among other things. i like CAL, but i see the gaps where it could be better. i'd like to be a part of that improvement. it will happen soon enough.

 

[Plug]

The folks that slam CAL for first year pay, etc. make me laugh, and I just lived through it. Honestly, it f*cking sucks, but, it is a contract that is going to be amendable in 08'. We have a ton of airplanes on order with many options. CAL is at least 2 years ahead of the other legacy carriers. Short term loss for a long term gain IMHO. SWA/FDX/UPS are good deals but turning down CAL for the hopes of DAL or UAL is ludicrious.

XJT is no safe bet either. The branded flying may or may not work. Other than that XJT is no different than any other small jet operator. I would much rather fly my own code then compete for scraps.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Go up to COVE HAVEN and RENT THE ROOM WITH THE CHAMPAGNE GLASS JACUZZI !!! If you are a true POCONO PILOT you will know exactly what I am talking about

Now I know why I was perusing this thread ... the single best piece of advice I got off of flightinfo all year!

How many flight attendants can I fit in there?
Do they take cash?
Can I register under an assumed name?

 

[capt. megadeth]

Not a slam Mega, just wondering how you know it's a fact?

Well about 10 people out of 15 that I know interviewed didn't get the job the first time. I probably know more people at SWA than I do any other airline.

 

[flatspin7]

I was lucky enough to be hired at CAL from Xjet about a 2 months after the XJet flood gates opened, (113 and PIGS were all gone or had thier chances).

I just finished my first year at CAL and I can agree with others that is really sucks making 30 bucks an hour flying a 737 (or bigger) with no health insurance. I never considdered leaving because after a year at the company I am at 60% 737 EWR, and I get 15 days off with about 1/2 the weekends off. I really cant imagine going else where and having to go through the stress of probation and training at a new place.

A big thing you have to remember is that in 2004 when the last "contract" was passed there were people on the street, there was still a large contingent of Scabs who would basically give the company what ever they wanted, and nobody was anywhere near first year pay.

Now there are 1000-1500 (I dont know the number for sure) new hires and there will be many more by the time the next contract comes for a vote. New hires will vastly out number the scabs by that time, and we all remember what it was like to live with that slap in the face. We have no pentions to protect we can flight for the right thing!

I first of all decided that I will vote no on any TA that does not include a decent living wage for all new hires (50-60 seems like a good starting point) and health insurance for day one.

Furthermore I plan to give my time and what ever else I can to ensure my fellow brothers and sisters at CAL do the right thing not only help ourselves but those behind us. I wasn't at CAL when the last contract went into effect, so I couldnt do anything about that, but now I can do something and I intend to do so.

I urge all fellow CAL pilots here to sign up for a Union P2P training and help secure our future!

 

[capt. megadeth]

"Bitter, table for one......your table is ready"

Oh, get over it. I am not bitter anymore. When was the last time I hijacked a SWA thread or ripped on SWA? Just because I say anything remotely negative, does not mean I am bitter.

 

[capt. megadeth]

She flies for UPS. I doubt very much she is bitter.

Amen bro! Thank you.

 

[capt. megadeth]

right.....that's why she slams SWA at every chance. UPS is great, but come on.

But come on what?

I am bitter because I miss flying pain in the a$$ people around? Yeah....ok.

 

[capt. megadeth]

I have seen it first hand, and know several guys that passed flowing through to CAL back in the day.

OMG! Seriously?

Anyone that would do that is got to be the biggest f***ing moron on the planet!

 

[Jonny Sacko]

Now there are 1000-1500 (I don't know the number for sure) new hires and there will be many more by the time the next contract comes for a vote. New hires will vastly out number the scabs by that time, and we all remember what it was like to live with that slap in the face. We have no pensions to protect we can flight for the right thing!

I believe it's a little sooner than you think. The last I heard, it was around 800 scabs, and decreasing daily this year. It's the older guys willing to give anything away for their retirement that scares me. I see their side with extreme clarity, but I believe ALL area's need fixing!