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Turboprop Engines

  • Thread starter Thread starter PA31Ho
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PA31Ho

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 13, 2003
Posts
431
Hey all, I'm trying to learn more about turboprops and turbine engines. I took out the C90 Manual I have at the house that a friend gave me from Simcom, but I got lost when it started talking about Two-Stage Axial flow and Centrifigul flow. So I was wondering if anybody could give me a good web site to read read about it. I thought about ordering the book "Turbine Pilot's Flight Manual" does anybody have any thoughts on this book?

Thanks.
 
Great book... You can order it from barnesandnoble.com


Turbine Pilot's Flight Manual


well worth it.

3 5 0
 
I think that's a pretty good book to learn the basics of jet engines. A turbine engine is a helluva lot easier to figure out than any type of piston engine. Gearboxes and overspeed governors can be somewhat mindboggling as well, but the turbine engine is beautifully simple.

An axial flow turbine just means the air flows straight through the engine. A centrifugal engine uses a compressor similar to what you'd find turbocharging your car engine. The air takes a much more circular route through the engine which allows for a much shorter engine. The book goes into a lot more detail, but it's still easy to follow.
 
While its been noted around here that I usually recommend against spending $$$ on some aviation stuff such as Sporty's flight bags, knee boards and such, The Turb. Pilots Flight Manual a very good book and one that many recommend. It worth the cash, you'll refer to it many time in the years to come.

other book, these 2 can be found in the local Lib. so you may not have to shell the cash first.

Aerodynamics for Naval Avaitors (classic)

The Illistrated Guide to Aerodynamics (very very very simple well written book on overall aircraft design)
 
The compressor can be thought of as a compactor, with a series of fans pushing air, one after the other, to a higher, and higher pressure. This is accomplished by the fans themselves, and the shape of the duct through which it passes.

An axial compressor is much like a household fan, in a tube. It blows air straight through.

A centrifugal compressor is a slinger. Think of it as the blades in your garbage disposal. Drop in the garbage, the blades spin around, toss the garbage outward, away from the blades. Or the little impeller in your blender. Only in this case, it's air.

A centrifugal compressor produces a much greater pressure rise than an axial compressor; a single stage centrifugal compressor does the work of several axial compressors. The number and location are determined by the design of the engine. Usually a series of axial compressors preceed a centrifugal compressor, and the centrifugal compressor stage is the last one in the compressor section.

From there, the air simply flows into a diffuser ring, which is nothing more than another part of the engine with a different shape. Throughout the compressor section, the duct narrowed, causing increased velocity. In the diffuser section, the ducting opens up, causing a drop in velocity and an increase in pressure.

This high pressure air is routed into burner cans (and mostly around burner cans), where it's mixed with fuel, and ignited. From there, it passes from the burner to the turbine wheels...it blows on the wheels, causing them to turn like windmills. These wheels are mechanically connected to the compressor; the first of these wheels are what make the compresors turn.

In some engines, there are multiple wheels. Some are connected to the compressor. Some are connected to a propeller or fan. The exhaust then exits the engine, serving to propell the aircraft by producing thrust.

If you're familiar with a piston engine, you're familiar with the cycles of intake, compression, combustion (power), and exhaust. This is repeated over and over in the piston engine, one step at a time.

In a turbine engine, the same cycles take place, but continuously, each in a separate part of the engine. You have intake at the front of the engine, and it keeps occuring throughout the engine operation (rather than in a series of "breaths" as in a piston engine). Next you have compression, again a continuous action. Combustion takes place continuously, and without need for a spark, as it's a constant-burning fire that occurs as more and more fuel is added...it works like the burner on your stove. Finally, you have exhaust...not a cycle or stroke, but a continuous venting of expanded hot gasses from the rear of the engine (or from the front, in the case of the PT-6.

There's a little more to it, but you get the idea.

Some engines take air in the front and blow it out the back. Others take it in the back, and blow it out the front. This type of engine is called a reverse-flow engine. The PT6A is one such engine.
 
avbug said:


A centrifugal compressor produces a much greater pressure rise than an axial compressor; a single stage centrifugal compressor does the work of several axial compressors.

Excellent post as always Avbug!!

I only have one question about your response. I was always under the impression that the opposite was true regarding your above quote. I always thought (maybe erroneously) that an axial-flow compressor was more efficient, and as a result of greater pressure rise it would/will produce over 2 times the compression ratio of a centrifugal flow?

I don't have my Turbine Pilots flight manual handy, and haven't really had the need to dissect this theory for several years now, and could be wrong.

Great topic!
 
The two typically work in concert. Axial compressors work in multiples to accelerate the air, for maximum mass airflow (volume), while the centrifugal compressor actually slows air but increases pressure dramatically. The axial compressor's effect is as much due to duct shape with decreasing duct area, as the efficiency of the compressor itself.

One for one, a centrifugal compressor provides a much greater pressure rise, though less velocity. Placing a centrifugal compressor after axial compressors makes sense, as a prelude to the diffuser. It's also a good place to install bleed valves (utility bleeds typically at this point or the diffuser case), while acceleration or engine bleeds in the axial flow section.

Axial sections are quite susceptible to compressor stalls, whereas a centrifugal compressor is not nearly so (bearing in mind that a compressor stall is a compromise between airflow inefficiencies due to angle of attack at any given compressor wheel, and excessive back pressure from the diffuser/burner section. Among other things, a centrifugal compressor also serves to reduce the chance of an axial compressor stall.

The compression ratios vary, but generally multiple stages of axial flow compressor are required to produce the same increase as a single stage centrifugal impeller.
 
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Great post Avbug.
Buy the Turbine Pilots Flight Manual, I don't know what the cost is now but it contains some of the best descriptions/pictures you can find on the subject of turbine engines. Mine came with a CD which was pretty helpful. Great book, money well spent.
 
Wow... impressive replies. Makes it a lot simpler to have anologies (thanks Avbug)

So what I get out of this is that axial-flow compressors come before centrifigul-flow compressors. Now, when it says tw-stage, does that mean 2 compressors? That's just what I'm assuming, because I can't think of anything else that 2-stage would mean. Now, you explained what a diffuser ring is, but where is it located? I'm just trying to get a mental picture in my head of the inside.

Thanks Once Again
 
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As the saying goes " a picture is worth a thousand words"

Buy the book you certainly will not be disappointed.

If you're looking to save a few bucks you can pick it up here both used or new.

Enjoy

2
 
Think of the stages as items, or parts, placed one after the other. Think of the axial stages as fans. Picture one of those big square ugly floor fans that used to get put on the floor in your gradeschool classroom. Put one in front of the other, the first blowing into the second. This is a two stage axial compressor (albeit a very inefficient and cheap one).

Add a third fan, and you have a three stage axial compressor.

After the axial section, you have the centrifugal section. Typically only one centrifugal compressor is used. If there is only one centrifugal impeller, then it's a single stage centrifugal compressor.

Therefore, you have a two stage axial, single stage centrifugal compressor. It sounds confusing, but really all it's doing is describing each section in turn, to describe the whole compressor.

An important function of these compressor types is that they typically are independent of each other, in the way they're driven. The compressor wheels, or stages (same thing) are driven by the turbines. Remember that the turbines are driven by hot, high velocity, expanded gasses coming from the combustors.

The PT6A gets a little confusing because airflow reverses several times inside the engine. It does this for two reasons; one is to preclude passage of contaminates and materials which might damage the engine (including water or ice, which may not only cause damage, but put out the continuous flame in the burner can...a "flame out"). The other reason is to make the engine as compact as possible, and to increase the strength of high stress parts by making them short and stout.

It would be easier to see the layout of the engine if it went in a straight line; you could conceptualize it better, but in the case of the PT6A, it doesn't do that.

As hot gasses exit the combustor, they pass over the power turbine wheels. The first turbine wheel drives the high pressure compressor. This is typically the centrifugal compressor(s). It does this with a shaft that runs directly from the first stage power turbine, right down through the middle of the compressor, to the high pressure compressor. This shaft is hollow.

After the hot gasses pass over the first stage power turbine(s), they pass over other turbines. These turbine wheels are attached to a shaft that goes right up the middle of the hollow high pressure shaft. This smaller inner shaft connects to the axial compressor wheels, and drives them. This turbine is called the low pressure turbine wheel.

Therefore, the compressor wheel is driven by a specific part of the power turbine section. This is called a spool, and we have single, double or triple spool engines.

On turbofan engines, and on some turbopropeller engines, certain spools drive the fan, or propeller. On the PT6A, the main reason it's a reverse flow engine is that the exhaust gasses drive the propeller. There is nothing connecting the compressor and turbines to the propeller. Hot gasses exit the engine, and drive the propeller; it's independent and free of the mechanical opeation of the power turbines and compressors.

To think of it this way, in abstract theory you could grab hold of the propeller on a PT6A and start the engine. The engine would start, and the propeller would be immobile as you held it. In truth, there's just too much torque on that prop; you're going to get tossed. But the point is that the only thing driving that propeller is hot air; there's no mechanical connection between the actual gas turbine engine, and the propeller itself, as far as driving it.

We call this kind of engine a free turbine engine, because the engine is separate and independent of the propeller. Other turbopropeller engines, such as the ubiquitous TFE-331, drive the propeller directly via a shaft and gearing. These are not free turbine engines, as if the engine is turning, the propeller is turning; they're connected.

Turbofan engines work the same way; the fan is driven by planetary gearing from the power turbine section, via a concentric shaft that runs right up the middle of the engine. It connects a spool (power turbine, and compressor) to the fan, through a planetary gearbox.

It's important to note that the different spools of the engine aren't connected. The only connection between them is that compressed air and hot gasses flow from one to another. In a single spool engine, everything is connected. But in a two spool or double spool engine, the high pressure and low pressure sections of the engine operate independently of one another. One influences the other, but the first stage power turbines/high pressure compressor(s) that make up the high pressure stage will be moving typically at a much higher speed than the other spool(s).

Hopefully this isn't confusing you more...
 
Well I certainly appreciate you all taking the time of day to responding to this simple, yet very interesting topic.

Avbug: A lot of people on this board, me being one of them, are very thankful to have somebody to take time to respond, in great detail I might add, to questions. I thank you for sharing your great wealth of knowledge.

Nick


By the way, that book is on order. Thanks turning2 for the link!
 
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Someone expressed confusion about the relative efficiencies between axial and centrifugal compressors. Centrifugal compressors give a higher pressure rise per stage than do axial compressors. In a pure axial engine, it may require 11 or more fans (compressor rotor/stator stages) to gain the desired compression, while in a pure centrifugal engine, it usually only takes two stages. However, the centrigugal compressor had drawbacks. One drawback being that it is inefficient at low speeds. On the other hand, axial compressors are pretty efficient at lower speeds. This is the main reason that combination compressor engines (axial stages feeding a centrifugal stage) utilize pressure relief (bleed valves). If memory serves, the PT6 calls the bleed valves "P two and a half" valves. These valves dump axial air at low RPM in order to avoid choking the centrifugal compressor. If they weren't there, the axial stages would put so much air into the centrifugal compressor that it will effectively "stop up". Once the centrifugal compressor is operating near its efficient speed, the bleeds close and all of the air is feed into said centrifugal compressor.
Centrifugal compressors are also inflexible in RPM, they lose efficiency quickly if turned slower than their efficient RPM. This is the reason that a pure centrifugal engine like the Garrett TPE331 is so loud, it's running at 97%speed or above all of the time in order to keep the compressors working.

Well, it's late and I'm rambling. If I confused anyone, let me know and I'll try and clarify tommorrow after the Cowboys whip the Dolphins.

cheers,
enigma

One more thing right quick to help a little. Most modern jet engines consist of axial compressors feeding a centrifugal compressor, Garrett TFE731s on a Lear 35 are an example. Older jets, and some military jets are axial only, a Lear24 uses GE CJ610s.
I know of no centrifugal only, jet engines. Turboprops are usually combination and the Pratt&Whitney Canada PT6 used by most KingAires is a good example. The Garrett TPE331 is centrifugal only, engine and is mounted on Merlins, Jetstreams, MU2's etc.
 
enigma said:
I know of no centrifugal only, jet engines. Turboprops are usually combination and the Pratt&Whitney Canada PT6 used by most KingAires is a good example. The Garrett TPE331 is centrifugal only, engine and is mounted on Merlins, Jetstreams, MU2's etc.

The Whittle engines were centrifugal only compressor engines, as was the GE-1A in the Bell XP-59 (first US jet plane) and the Allison J-33 which powered the Lockheed P-80/T-33/F-94 series. Of course you may have been speaking in the context of modern engines .... obviously these are more of historical interest.
 
Thanks, Avbug, for the lesson. I feel like I have a better understanding of the engines that spin away just outside the cockpit window.
 
enigma said:



Well, it's late and I'm rambling. If I confused anyone, let me know and I'll try and clarify tommorrow after the Cowboys whip the Dolphins.


I guess there will be no clarifications today...

http://www.dallascowboys.com/
 
Loafman said:
I guess there will be no clarifications today...

http://www.dallascowboys.com/

Yea, It's good that I'm only a fan. If I was connected to the team I'd be ready to throw myself off a cliff. Did the boys stink, or what? Actually, the Fins did a heck of a job. Fiedler kicked behind. Norv Turner outcoached Mike Zimmer, and I'm glad that I ate before the game.

cheers,
enigma
 
enigma said:

I know of no centrifugal only, jet engines. Turboprops are usually combination and the Pratt&Whitney Canada PT6 used by most KingAires is a good example. The Garrett TPE331 is centrifugal only, engine and is mounted on Merlins, Jetstreams, MU2's etc.

I believe that the Marbore engines used in Paris Jets and Fougas are centrifugal only jet engines.
 

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