TSA is Checking

[Booster]

Failure to allow inspection of Airman certificate, Authorization, or FAA license. 49 C.F.R. 1540.113.
Failure to comply fine $1000 - $3000

http://www.tsa.gov/interweb/assetlibrary/Sanction_Guidance_for_Individuals_7-15-2004.pdf





If we are TSA ID checked can we ask them for their ID to ensure they are TSA agents and authorized to check?

 

[RJones]

Hum, interesting. I wouldn’t "fail" to allow inspection of my certificates, however, I would have to have their supervisor on seen and wouldn’t show anyone anything until I’ve seen their Id. Would I be refusing? debatable. I guess I don’t have a problem with it, however, I wouldn’t be inclined to show it to your average screener.



Many years ago I was ramped in CLE and the FAA inspector refused to show me his FAA Id…I simply walked away and chuckled. Who’s this guy I thought, prank or something? After about 30 minutes he was back and presented me his credentials, my response was amazement. I said to the fellah, “if you’d shown me your credentials in the beginning you could have looked at whatever you want, but sorry, it’s time for me to go.” He was PO’d.



RJ

 

[Bandit60]

You should see their ID as well. A good thing to do is also write down their name. Make sure you are very polite when doing this. This tends to stop any monkey business they might put you thru. But I cant stress enough to be Polite!!!

I once saw a man in a suit standing on the ramp and I didn't know who he was so I asked him to show me ID and it turned out to be the airport' homeland security director. He told me that I did the right thing by asking to see his ID.

 

[Tripower455]

Meanwhile, Mohammed the provisioner, is, with a flash of his SIDA badge, driving his truck in the back gate of the same airport...........

 

[FatesPawn]

No worries folks.

If you don't want to whip out your orville and wilbur just politely tell them you don't have it with you.

You are not required to carry your pilots license unless you are excercising the priviliges of that license.

Tell em' you're deadheading and it's in your checked bag.

Tell em' you're just showing up for work and it's in your flight case in operations.

Tell em' you're showing up to do paperwork.

Take you pick.

Fate.

 

[dlredline]

Excellent idea!

 

[Eagleflip]

Oh for gosh sakes....How hard is this, really?

Ok, let's just assume for a minute that whoever made this rule figured that it may be prudent--in certain circumstances--to check a pilot's credentials as they pass through security. Why? Dunno, but they (Homeland Security, mother of TSA) decided that it was perhaps a beneficial thing to do in light of intel, overall security, or whatever.

So, here we go, all pumped up on our own airline pilot juice, ready to either a. stare them down and request a supervisor be present before producing the ID, or b. telling them a lie so that we don't have to submit to their simple silliness.

I've gotta ask, guys...How freakin' hard is it to simply comply with a license and medical check? We whip those puppies out (so to speak :>)) every time we jumpseat and don't think a thing of it. But the moment we infer some sort of power play by the TSA, we get all goofy and decide we are better than the average security bear.

Yeah, I know. We are subjected to the same security litany every time we go to and from work. And trust me, nothing infuriates me more that "beeping" as I go through that dang metal sensor while in uniform. But c'mon, gang. It is not that hard to simply show the documents, say "have a nice day," and move on.

It doesn't diminish you. It doesn't kow-tow to them. Showing the stuff simply complies with their authority as necessary. They aren't the Gestapo.

I'll admit that some of the TSA crew are a bit heavy handed on their screening. It is probably a power trip for a few of them (no more than being a pilot is the same for some of us!) For the past two and a half years, though, I have noted them to be normal humans doing a rather unenjoyable job day in and day out. Take a moment and be at least cordial. Saying "hello," and "how's your day going ?" is not only a small part of the golden rule, but it makes sense. One or two good-humored people tend to make the day go easier for all involved. These TSA employees are not responsible for the dunderheaded security policy in place around the ramps. They are not responsible for the catering security shortfalls...You catch my drift.

And if you do notice ID checking abuse, report it..It'll be sorted out.

Geez...I guess I simply look for a little more maturity than I typically find here.

 

[Tripower455]

Ok, let's just assume for a minute that whoever made this rule figured that it may be prudent--in certain circumstances--to check a pilot's credentials as they pass through security. Why? Dunno, but they (Homeland Security, mother of TSA) decided that it was perhaps a beneficial thing to do in light of intel, overall security, or whatever.

The problem that pilots have with most of this nonsense is that it is not logical.

"Security" issues are not new either. This nonsense goes back to PSA 1771.

The fact that we are screened at all, is simply not logical, ESPECIALLY when every other employee waltzes in the back door.

After showing them our airline ID, SIDA badge, driver's license etc., then, removing our shoes, getting felt up by a hs dropout and having our small toiletries/tools pilfered, we STILL take over the airplane. The net result of screening us for weapons is ZERO, in terms of actual aircraft security. Having an easily recognized, authority figure submit to the same screening as passengers might make some of them think that security is air tight.

Mohammed, who was hired yesterday, STILL drives his provo truck in the back door.........

If we had ID's that are at least as secure as the ramper hired yesterday, there would even less need, other than for public appeasement reasons, for us to submit to pax screening. Oh, wait a minute, we DO get the same IDs.........

That said, I agree with you completely that it is counterproductive to give the hitler youth a hard time at the passenger screening checkpoint.

Writing congress is slightly more effective, and you might not get arrested!

 

[RJones]

Well, my wife is a "hs dropout" and a lawyer with five type ratings and I don't mind being felt up and down by her, heck, I'm a "hs dropout" and I'm flying the plane. How does being a "hs dropout" fit into the picture here?

I have yet to see Mohammed provoing the plane...where's he at?

 

[Tripower455]

Well, my wife is a "hs dropout" and a lawyer with five type ratings and I don't mind being felt up and down by her, heck, I'm a "hs dropout" and I'm flying the plane. How does being a "hs dropout" fit into the picture here?

Is your wife manning/feeling you up at the tsA "security" checkpoints with 5 type ratings and I presume (lawyer) a college degree? Are you? I didn't think so........

If you can't see the point, then maybe you ought to finish up HS..........

I have yet to see Mohammed provoing the plane...where's he at?

JFK, PHL, BOS, PHX, MIA, LGA, MHT, DAL, ATL, DTW, BUF or wherever he wants to be......... and he doesn't get screened to be there.

If you can't see the problem with that, you haven't given it any critical analysis........

Oh BTW, Mohammed happens to be the most popular name in the world........

 

[FatesPawn]

I've gotta ask, guys...How freakin' hard is it to simply comply with a license and medical check? We whip those puppies out (so to speak :>)) every time we jumpseat and don't think a thing of it. But the moment we infer some sort of power play by the TSA, we get all goofy and decide we are better than the average security bear.

Ah, Eagleflip,

You're right... We're not better than the "average security bear." When a gate agent goes through security, they don't have to show their "gate agent license," so neither should we.

Not belittling anyone here. It is just another stupid TSAism that can be circumvented by Al Qaeda by saying, "my license is in operations."

If it's that easy for them to get by a TSA worker, we certainly shouldn't have to comply either.

My Drivers License, State ID, or Passport is sufficent in conjunction with my airline ID. Until the TSA realizes that terrorists don't simply follow onerous rules and regulations there will never be any true security.

Fate

 

[captdawg]

TSA Checking

I have the perfect solution to your problem. Sign up for the FFDO program, do your week at FLETC, and you'll not only walk through security with your shoes and cell phone on, but you'll be adding one more level of security to the whole mess.

 

[SSDD]

The way I understood the memo was that only TSA security personnel, not your average screener, can ask to see your certificates. These guys rank a little higher on the totem pole. They are authorized to go out on the flt ops area, and I believe, but I'm NOT SURE, may be armed, just like FAA security. And yes, anyone asking to see your ID should first identify themselves.

 

[Tripower455]

I have the perfect solution to your problem. Sign up for the FFDO program, do your week at FLETC, and you'll not only walk through security with your shoes and cell phone on, but you'll be adding one more level of security to the whole mess.

I might have to give that some consideration.........

It still doesn't change the fact that it defies logic to screen pilots as passengers.

Aren't we, as pilots, already in control of a "weapon" inside the "secure" area?

What would allow me, as an FFDO, to bypass passenger, "security" screening? (ID maybe? ) Wouldn't issuing an equivalent ID to bona fide flight crewmembers negate the "need" to screen us (as well as negate the need to spend a week in Artesia with it's associated costs in order not be screened as a passenger)?

What other security issues, exploitable by the bad guys, are brought up when it's obvious that some pilots go through passenger screening, yet others don't?

 

[intel33]

Of course, if you want to get to Artesia, you have to take a BUS from UFO central (ROW) after your Mesa flight from ABQ. Kind of funny when you think about it.

But I do agree that showing your credentials to the PROPER officials is not difficult. I also agree that it doesn't add to security and if we have a SIDA badge is also ridiculous to be searched as well.

 

[Tripower455]

Kinda fits in with my rant about the "trusted employees" that aren't screened......

[font=verdana, arial, helvetica]

Sting Nets 6 Accused Of Helping Smuggle Guns, Drugs Aboard

ORLANDO, Fla. -- The Transportation Security Administration has ordered a security overhaul at Orlando International Airport after perhaps the most serious security breaches since Sept. 11, 2001.

Federal Agents Arrest Airport ScreenersUndercover federal agents say six screeners at Orlando International Airport agreed to help them smuggle illegal items aboard a plane.

The TSA said effectively immediately, Orlando Airport workers will be screened, WESH NewsChannel 2 reported.

The changes are stemming from the arrest of six current and former baggage handlers. They are accused of conspiring to smuggle drugs and guns onto commercial airliners.

A sting operation netted the six men. The government said they used a bag-switching scheme to smuggle what they thought were drugs and handguns past federal security screeners and onto planes bound for Puerto Rico.

It's unclear how many times this may have happened for real before the federal government caught on. Undercover agents were told to prepare identical backpacks -- one with illegal items, such as guns and drugs, and the other with clothes or newspapers.

Agents said baggage handlers with security clearance simply moved the suspect backpack though security and traded out with undercover agents waiting in the secure areas.

At the men's detention hearing, family members had no comment. A lawyer appointed to represent one of the suspects said she has not had to chance to look at the case yet.

The investigation has led to big changes in the way security is conducted at OIA. As of Monday, OIA workers now must face federal screening, something that didn't happen before the arrests took place.

Sources said the ring is connected to an arrest in January. In that case, a man was accused of smuggling 50 pounds of marijuana concealed in a duffel bag onto a flight bound for Puerto Rico.[/font]

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[BHS]

Tripower 455, I think you have the handle on it. Nice homework! I agree.

 

[Huck]

I guess I simply look for a little more maturity than I typically find here.

One could say the same thing about you, big boy....

Look - people treat you with the respect you demand.

80 years of scratching and clawing by our forebears have gotten us the protection we have today. Because of them we can kick anyone off the cockpit jumpseats, we can refuse clearances if we don't concur, and we can declare an emergency and own the sky. Not to mention crew rest protections, etc....

Now it's the reverse. When I started at FDX we had 18 year old part time rampers pawing through pilots' baggage, because they could be trusted and we could not (thankfully that's gone now). Thirty year industry veterans with military history before that are taking off their belts at airport screening for screeners - yeah, most of them are pleasant, but they can ruin your career and you can't defend yourself.

My pop did 31 years at red-tail NWA, and was there through the old "cobra airline" days. Those guys had a minimum floor - either you treat us with this minimum amount of respect, or shove this job. Hard to visualize them taking off their shoes in front of their passengers....

Let me ask you something, Eagleflip... what if the TSA announced they wanted to sit in on your cockpit prep, walk around with you during your preflight inspection, listen in on your departure brief. What if they were real nice about it. You gonna draw the line at some point?

 

[Tripower455]

Huck,

GREAT post........

I always wonder what Ed Musick, Ernie Gann, Dave Benhke etc. would say about the whole pilot screening issue.......

We get the respect we demand, and we really dropped the ball in '88.......

 

[Eagleflip]

Huck-

Thanks for the "lack of maturity" slam. Somehow I thought I made my point without falling to the level of some of our more, shall we say, "less life experienced" posters. Obviously you take umbrage to my remarks. I stand by them, and here's why.

The basics: I made the previous statement in response to the suggestions that we either lie to the screeners or demand to see their supervisor in the rare event they ask to see our credentials. This attitude is counterproductive; yes, while seemingly intrusive, it simply is not that hard to do.

From your statements, Huck, three points are obvious. First, you question the TSAs need to do this rather superfluous check of our credentials. Well, surprise, surprise--I question it too. I wonder if it is some government official's response to a real problem, or a knee jerk reaction to a non-validated intelligence issue? Either way, we aren't going to find out soon; in the meanwhile, the requirement to pull out the ID is simply not worth scheming, lying or making a big "to do" about. We have more important issues to face down, such as finding non-beeping shoes and supporting the FFDO program. Seriously, making a stand may be important, but not about this. Let's pick something worthwhile.

Second, you want to know "is there is a line?" in short what I'll do if the TSA wants to sit in my cockpit and listen to the departure brief or escort me on the walk around? Unless proffered by the FAA and my company with extraordinary justification, I'll refuse to comply. A double standard? No. Why would Eagleflip agree to the screening ID check and not the cockpit intrusion, you ask? Simple: TSA is in charge of airport security and screening and not flight operations. I'll do my job and they'll do theirs. If asking for my ID is part of the plan, then ok--that's within their purview. Flight ops is our part of the deal and I'll do my job without undue interference, thank you.

Finally, and probably most important, I sense in your reply (which is all I have to work with, since we can't discuss this in person as we'd like to) the longing for a return to the civility of a pilot's life. By that I mean we would all like to have the sense of responsibility and ultimate authority the Captains of previous years enjoyed. Certainly I would as well.

No surprise or shock, Huck, but that is an impossiblity now. This change didn't come about due to LCC evolution, union negotiations or sixty years of effort. 9-11 required a few modifications in how we live and work and we've got to get used to them. I respect what your dad did in his 31 years at NWA; undoubtedly he was a true professional. But if eight of his coworkers were murdered on the same day by a group of dedicated terrorists (may they continue to roast...), I'd venture to say that even he would have submitted to a reasonable amount of security. No one enjoys taking off shoes in front of the pax's...thank Richard Reid for that little trick.

My discussion came about as a result of various folk's responses to the new TSA "authority." I'm not arguing what has been gained by our predecessors, but I am saying that a little understanding goes a long way. Let's choose our battles wisely.