TSA is Checking

[Tripower455]

This change didn't come about due to LCC evolution, union negotiations or sixty years of effort. 9-11 required a few modifications in how we live and work and we've got to get used to them. I respect what your dad did in his 31 years at NWA; undoubtedly he was a true professional. But if eight of his coworkers were murdered on the same day by a group of dedicated terrorists (may they continue to roast...), I'd venture to say that even he would have submitted to a reasonable amount of security. No one enjoys taking off shoes in front of the pax's...thank Richard Reid for that little trick.

This situation started WAAAAAY before 9/11 or Richard Reid........ If you want to "thank" anyone, thank David Burke, the now deceased, ex US Air ramper that comitted mass murder on 12/7/87. It was in the aftermath of that incident that we were forced to star in The Greatest Security Show on Earth, while rampers (see the irony?) were/are not.

After 9/11, we merely got more of the same ineffective eyewash.

As I've already stated, ad nauseum, nothing has been accomplished, security wise, after screening flight crewmembers for weapons. In any case, we are taking over an aircraft, and we are either trusted, or we are not. If we are not trusted, then why are we allowed to take complete command of a potential WMD? If we are trusted, then there is no reason to submit to passenger (more irony) screening, unless you consider passenger apeasement, without really doing anything, a "reason". If the feds have "intel" that bad guys dressed as pilots are going to try to take over an airplane (the most common "reason" cited for pilot screening), screening us will not change anything since we (or they!) will still take over the aircraft.

The entire issue boils down to ID. My ID allows me to command an airliner, several of which have already been used as weapons, yet doesn't permit me to carry a pair of pliers when in control of that potential WMD. Why are LEOS allowed to carry weapons in the "secure" area and on airplanes? ID. Shouldn't my ID, that allows me complete control of a much more potentially devastating weapon than an LEOs sidearm, prove that I am a "good guy"?

To add insult to injury, rampers, of which one has ALREADY committed mass murder after bypassing "security", are still not screened. IMHO, it is because they are not as easily recognized by the masses as pilots are, and since there are so many of them, it might be "impractical" to screen them. It makes more sense to have an easily identifiable, authority figure submit, since it "shows" the public that they are doing something ("Wow, security must be really tight now, if they are even searching the pilots!") without encumbering the system too much. Extra style points if they arrest a pilot for grousing too much about it ...... Besides, a ground ops guy who got hired yesterday has to be more trustworthy than a pilot with many years of verifiable employment/military history!


All of the above STILL doesn't justify giving the tsA people a hard time at the "security" checkpoints. Those folks didn't make the stupid rules. They are just doing their jobs and most nowadays are OK. The idiotic rules will not change by giving them a hard time, and it can quickly become a very bad day for a pilot that pushes the "press to test" button......

 

[Tripower455]

Second, you want to know "is there is a line?" in short what I'll do if the TSA wants to sit in my cockpit and listen to the departure brief or escort me on the walk around? Unless proffered by the FAA and my company with extraordinary justification, I'll refuse to comply.

The tsA did this for several days (weeks?) not too long ago on a UAL "flight of interest". They basically harassed the crews flying these flights by rifling their bags in the jetway, following the fo around on the walkaround and generally monitoring the flight crew before they left. All of which would have done NOTHING if one or more of them were bad guys, since they still had control of the airplane after they pushed ........

Sorry to keep harping on this stuff, but this issue is a pet peeve of mine, and has been for many years....... All of our lives and careers depend on keeping air travel secure, and what they've done, and more importantly, not done, is nothing short of criminal, IMHO.

Not only have they not made it more secure, they are needlessly harassing us in the process.

 

[Dizel8]

I got to go with some of the posters here. Either I am trusted or I am not. If I am trusted, then there is no point and if I am not, then I should not be allowed to fly the plane. Simple as that!

It is silly, to deny me carrying a tool, yet I can become a FFDO, in which case I can carry a gun. So, give me the same background check as the FFDO, and I doubt it is very different, if at all, from the background check that has already been done on me. Then I too should be trusted and allowed to carry my Leatherman.

The only true powerplay, I have seen with the TSA, was when they tried to get the authority to take away licenses. Thankfully, the FAA shut that one down.

Screening pilots is window dressing, it makes the passenger feel good about security and the perception is that it is topnotch. Now, I am curious about waht they will do, considering the article posted by Tripower. Apparently the "watchers" cannot be trusted, so what do we do now. They can analprobe me until kingdom come, but the same screener is the one who assist by bringing the weapon into a secure area.

Sure, showing your license is a minor deal and I have no problem with that, as I truly don't think anyone does, but what is happening, is that we are geting close to breaking the camels back. This is merely another straw unto what is already becoming a heavy burden and like it or not, at some point we will either have surrendered all respectability or we will say enough is enough.

 

[scabseeker]

Logic

That was a great example of logic. The ramper uses a badge to get to the airplane, shoots the pilots in flight and the plane crashes. What is the solution to the problem of having fired rampies getting through security? Making the PILOTS go through security!! That would be hilarious if it weren't so sad. Thanks jerk.

Also, what is the deal with the TSA when they walk through the metal detectors? I remember in the old days, with Argenbright or whoever, when one of them was walking through the detector if it went off they had to go again until it was quiet. Nowadays I swear I see the TSA people stepping through the detector and when it goes off they just continue to their position and keep working. Anyone know if this is a change in policy?

 

[Tripower455]

Also, what is the deal with the TSA when they walk through the metal detectors? I remember in the old days, with Argenbright or whoever, when one of them was walking through the detector if it went off they had to go again until it was quiet. Nowadays I swear I see the TSA people stepping through the detector and when it goes off they just continue to their position and keep working. Anyone know if this is a change in policy?

I think they only do it out of sight of passengers, when the perception of security is not in jeopardy........

 

[Huck]

If asking for my ID is part of the plan, then ok--that's within their purview.

All right, I'll give you that much. But my ticket is not a form of ID. They would be better off checking my Sam's Club card - it's got a picture and my signature on it.

I'll give you an example of what I mean - after 911, the cargo airlines and the FAA went absolutely nuts over crew identification and bag procedures. I well remember climbing up a belt loader in PANC in a blizzard to get my bags out of the aft cargo of an MD11 - it was "safer " to put our bags back there, even though they were out of our control for an hour before departure. We had to hire rent-a-cops to check our ID's at the bottom of the air stairs. We all got 10 year background checks and FBI fingerprint scans.

But things got better. My company (FDX) now uses biometrics (I won't describe here) that ensure our ID. And there's a final check in the cockpit before departure. I don't mind all that because it makes sense.

Checking our tickets, however, makes absolutely no sense, and threatening me with a $3000 fine for refusing just makes me mad. I really don't have a dog in the hunt here - the only time I get TSA-screened is as a deadhead on a one way ticket, so I know I'll get the morning wanding anyway - but government is best when it governs least, and governs intelligently, in my opinion.

I've said this before here - we all are living in "Catch-22." Go read it. It sums up the current atmosphere quite precisely....

 

[Tripower455]

I've said this before here - we all are living in "Catch-22." Go read it. It sums up the current atmosphere quite precisely....

LOL..... It would be funny if it weren't true............

 

[Varmint]

the only time I get TSA-screened is as a deadhead on a one way ticket, so I know I'll get the morning wanding anyway - but government is best when it governs least, and governs intelligently, in my opinion.....

If you want to have a little fun with them play "Hunt the Quarter". Pick a place on your body to hide a quarter. Between the a$$ cheeks is a classic....LOL

 

[jhill]

Oh for gosh sakes....How hard is this, really?

Ok, let's just assume for a minute that whoever made this rule figured that it may be prudent--in certain circumstances--to check a pilot's credentials as they pass through security. Why? Dunno, but they (Homeland Security, mother of TSA) decided that it was perhaps a beneficial thing to do in light of intel, overall security, or whatever.

So, here we go, all pumped up on our own airline pilot juice, ready to either a. stare them down and request a supervisor be present before producing the ID, or b. telling them a lie so that we don't have to submit to their simple silliness.

I've gotta ask, guys...How freakin' hard is it to simply comply with a license and medical check? We whip those puppies out (so to speak :>)) every time we jumpseat and don't think a thing of it. But the moment we infer some sort of power play by the TSA, we get all goofy and decide we are better than the average security bear.

Yeah, I know. We are subjected to the same security litany every time we go to and from work. And trust me, nothing infuriates me more that "beeping" as I go through that dang metal sensor while in uniform. But c'mon, gang. It is not that hard to simply show the documents, say "have a nice day," and move on.

It doesn't diminish you. It doesn't kow-tow to them. Showing the stuff simply complies with their authority as necessary. They aren't the Gestapo.

I'll admit that some of the TSA crew are a bit heavy handed on their screening. It is probably a power trip for a few of them (no more than being a pilot is the same for some of us!) For the past two and a half years, though, I have noted them to be normal humans doing a rather unenjoyable job day in and day out. Take a moment and be at least cordial. Saying "hello," and "how's your day going ?" is not only a small part of the golden rule, but it makes sense. One or two good-humored people tend to make the day go easier for all involved. These TSA employees are not responsible for the dunderheaded security policy in place around the ramps. They are not responsible for the catering security shortfalls...You catch my drift.

And if you do notice ID checking abuse, report it..It'll be sorted out.

Geez...I guess I simply look for a little more maturity than I typically find here.

Thank you for this post. It only makes sense and what the he!! does it hurt.

 

[Tripower455]

Thank you for this post. It only makes sense and what the he!! does it hurt.

Please don't take offense, but this is the exact attitude that got us to this point.............

The fact that they came up with a fine for this offense, or that refusing to show your certificates is an offense at all, indicates that they are once again creating threats where there aren't any, whilst ignoring very real ones............. oh, and potentially putting otherwise innocent pilots in the hot seat (if one of the tsA minions decides that they aren't cooperating) FOR NO REASON! It really has more potential for harm (for us) than good, just like screening pilots as pax.

 

[rvsm410]

Why am I "always" secondary screened?

Hey this is sort of on the same topic of security screening, I want to find out why I am doubled checked everytime at every airport when I am flying on a stand by pass? I am not currently employed by an airline, yet have been with several companies, and held a secret clearance in the Air Force, other than a speeding ticket my back ground is pure as snow.

I have been on 3 or 4 interviews over the last year and everytime I have to undress and have my little overnight bad checked....anybody else going through this, and is there someone I can write to find out why this happens? Are all standby passengers going through this? Thanks

 

[saabcaptain]

Ok, let's ask a more basic question folks...

Has ANYONE been asked for their pilot certificate or medical when walking through security? I know I for sure haven't... I imagine the only time you would even with this new procedure is if something was flagged. Let's say you leave a leatherman in you flightcase and they catch it. Perhaps then they will ask you for you certificate, but I doubt they will be doing it all the time.

Has anyone actually just been randomly delayed for a TSA employee asking for your pilot certificate and medical?

 

[TR4A]

I want to find out why I am doubled checked everytime at every airport when I am flying on a stand by pass?

Is this on a one way ticket/reservation? If yes that is why.

 

[Thedude]

Are you non-revving on NWA or one of their feeders??

 

[sf3boy]

The procedures are the same if you are non revving on a real NWA flight or a pretend NWA flight.

 

[mach zero]

It's ironic to me that they are given the power to check our pilot certificates now since a few months ago, they would not let me past a checkpoint after seeing mine. I was a CA on a Part 121 flight that landed in a city of size in Louisiana. We were on a short stopover before going on with the trip. I needed some dinner so I went to one of the airports restaurants which was outside security. After comandering my food, I wanted to go back onboard to eat since softdrinks are free on board. The screeners refused me access to the checkpoint since I did not have a ticket. I was in uniform with company ID, coat, tie, hat, etc. There was no mistaking me as the pilot. I explained to them that I was operating the flight and did not need to buy a ticket on my own airplane. The answer from the checkpoint supervisor was I needed a ticket to go through. I showed him my company ID and pilot certificates and he still refused me access without a ticket. So I told him to take all of my flights passengers out of the gate area because without me, the flight was not leaving. He asked why? I said because like I have been telling you for the past 15 minutes, I am the captain on that flight. His response was, well you still need a ticket to go through security here. Finally, I went to our ticket counter where the station manager let me through the doorway that the ramp personnel go through.

 

[SKYCOP]

In response to the original post, I think you might have to comply when asked but only if you are the operator of an aircraft.

CFR 1544.3 " each aircraft operator must allow TSA, at any time and any place to make inspections"

CFR 1550.03 "TSA inspection authority ........aircraft operator must allow TSA, at any time or any place to make any inspection or test, including copying records to determine compliance."

These two state 'aircraft operator' , not Joe Pilot who is flying commercial, deadheading or otherwise. And of course, good old FAR 61.3 says......
" each person who holds an airman certificate must present it and their photo identification for inspection upon request from:
1. The Administrator
2. Any authorized Rep of NTSB
3. Any Fed, state, or local Law Enforcement
4. An authorized Rep of the TSA

The biggest problem is that all these regs say "the TSA"....they dont say WHO in the TSA, or WHO is an authorized rep. Even the definition of TSA in the CFR's only says Transportation Security Administration.............that leaves it wide open for that one power hungry jerkoff working the gate to stop you and ID you. It does'nt say if they must produce their ID as well when asked.
If they think a guy in full pilot garb could be a terrorist, then I guess a guy in full TSA garb could be one too and in the interest of national security I can see justification in making them ID as well.

Im not a lawyer (nor do I play one on TV) but the Reg's need to be changed......if their little badges get them access, company badges should do the same for pilots.