Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

Trouble at NWA ALPA

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web

vc10

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 7, 2003
Posts
377
Union rift endangers NWA pilots' deal
ALPA leader Mark McClain faces a recall after supporting Northwest's concessionary deal.
Liz Fedor, Star Tribune
Last update: April 25, 2006

Mark McClain, the veteran chairman of the Northwest Airlines pilots union, may be forced out of office today, and most of those pushing for his recall also oppose a concessionary pilots' agreement negotiated in March.
The 12 voting members of the union's executive council deadlocked concerning a recommendation on the tentative agreement, but McClain joined the negotiating committee in urging rank-and-file pilots to ratify the deal.
The movement to replace McClain is evidence of the sharp divisions within the executive council and within the 5,700-pilot group about how to respond to Northwest's demand for $358 million in annual cutbacks. Failure to ratify the agreement could lead to a judge imposing even more onerous provisions.
McClain's public support for the concessionary deal "caused a rift" among union leaders, said Mike Ristow, the pilots union representative on Northwest's board of directors.
"They do have enough votes to recall Mark," Ristow said Monday, adding that he hopes that won't happen. "It doesn't accomplish any useful purpose. I would say categorically that I support Mark McClain 100 percent."
Ristow said McClain and the negotiating committee pressed for the best deal in a difficult negotiating environment with bankrupt Northwest. Ristow supports the tentative agreement. McClain was unavailable for comment Monday.
The internal rift has some outside observers concerned.
"It appears that the risks are growing that the tentative agreement could be turned down," Julius Maldutis, president of New York-based Aviation Dynamics, said Monday in an interview.
Maldutis, a former Wall Street analyst, said that if Northwest pilots reject the tentative agreement, "the matter will go back to court, and I believe that the judge will then abrogate the pilot contract."
Pilot negotiators warned their members Friday that they, too, think Judge Allan Gropper would allow Northwest to void the existing contract if pilots reject the tentative pact. That action would permit Northwest to impose pay rates and work rules on the pilots that negotiators predict would be worse than the tentative deal.
Members of the Northwest branch of the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) agreed to a 15 percent pay cut in late 2004. In November, 64 percent of Northwest pilots who voted decided to accept an additional, temporary, pay cut of 23.9 percent. In early March, Northwest and the union reached a long-term tentative agreement.
But now a large number of Northwest pilots are organizing to defeat the agreement that would keep concessions in place through 2010 or 2011. A ratification vote is scheduled to be completed May 3. Pilots are allowed to change their votes until the final day.
In a memo to pilots, the negotiating committee warned that "it is unknown whether Congress would continue to work on pension reform legislation which mainly benefits one employee group [Northwest pilots], if the tentative agreement is rejected."
Northwest and ALPA leaders have jointly lobbied to win support for a pension provision that would give the airline up to 20 years to fully fund its defined-benefit pension plans. United Airlines and US Airways have terminated their plans.
Industry sources said Northwest pilots stand to lose $1.7 billion in benefits over the life of the defined-benefit plan if Congress doesn't give the carrier more time to make contributions and the plan is terminated.
Bill Bartels, vice chairman of the Northwest pilots union, said Monday that he is opposed to linking the fate of the pension bill with ratification of the Northwest pilots agreement.
Bartels, a Northwest first officer based in Detroit, is an outspoken opponent of the agreement. Politically, he is closely tied to A. Ray Miller, an Airbus A330 captain from Detroit.
Miller has aligned himself with the first officers on the executive council in opposing the tentative agreement and seeking McClain's ouster.
Ironically, Bartels also is subject to recall at today's executive council meeting. Bartels said he was elected vice chairman in October as part of a political compromise.
The Northwest pilot executive council cast multiple tie votes when Miller challenged McClain for the union chairmanship. Miller withdrew from the balloting on the agreement that Bartels would become vice chairman, Bartels said Monday.
Miller, who organized the junior pilot opposition to the tentative agreement, could not be reached for an interview Monday.
Oil was $63.67 a barrel on March 3, the day Northwest reached its pilots deal. Crude oil hit a record high Friday of $75.17 per barrel.
Liz Fedor • 612-673-7709
 
Why not let the membership ratification speak to the issue. Ousting a leader can show a lack of unity to management and the public. Sure behind close doors you have your disagreements and pontificate the issues.

After McClain is recalled, then what? Does the Anti-McClain camp have a replacement? And if so, is s/he a better leader? A highly subjective analysis...

Very grey.......
 
The fact that Delta pilots negotiated roughly 10% better pay seems to be another obstacle to ratification...

The right bet to make on these things is always that it gets ratified, whatever the sturm-und-drang that precedes the vote. But stuff like this suggests that the NWA vote will be closer than most.

Rez O. Lewshun said:
Why not let the membership ratification speak to the issue. Ousting a leader can show a lack of unity to management and the public. Sure behind close doors you have your disagreements and pontificate the issues.

After McClain is recalled, then what? Does the Anti-McClain camp have a replacement? And if so, is s/he a better leader? A highly subjective analysis...

Very grey.......
 
DL's TA is 2 1/2 years shorter in duration than the NW agreement. On that basis alone, I know several pilots who are reconsidering their votes.

The MEC recall is bad juju.
 
May 3 vote ends. If NWA comes out of Ch-11 by the end of the year, it runs thru 2010. 1 year longer than Delta T/A. Many people (no voters) are calling it longer trying to persuade people against it.
 
Last edited:
Diesel-9 said:
May 3 vote ends. If NWA comes out of Ch-11 by the end of the year, it runs thru 2010. 1 year longer than Delta T/A. Many people (no voters) are calling it longer trying to persuade people against it.

Where have you seen any guidance that suggests NWA will exit CH11 by the end of this year? Many people are calling it longer because it has almost every likelihood of Being longer than what you suggest. IMO it would take a miracle for NWA to get out of BK in the next 8 months and they would certainly buy themselves an extra year of our lousy deal by waiting until 1/2/2007 to exit.
 
In other news... Did you hear that Compass will NOT be receiving the CRJ from Mesaba??? Turns out the FAA got wind that no training program, manuals, etc exist and put a stop to that. Rumor on the street is that NWA cancelled XJ's reduced flying for the CRJ. Looks like both to remain under the XJ flag for now...
 
DTW320 said:
Where have you seen any guidance that suggests NWA will exit CH11 by the end of this year? Many people are calling it longer because it has almost every likelihood of Being longer than what you suggest. IMO it would take a miracle for NWA to get out of BK in the next 8 months and they would certainly buy themselves an extra year of our lousy deal by waiting until 1/2/2007 to exit.
Its not like they were actually bankrupt when they went into CH11, so they will likely come out of CH11 as soon as it suits them, like when they have the concessions they wanted in the first place. If there is an incentive to stay in CH11 you can just about bet the farm that they won't come out until '07.

I don't think United was any more or less solvent when they came out a couple of months ago than when they entered CH11.

Just a thought.

FJ
 
Steenland is the one that said NWA could be out of Chap 11 by Spring of 2007....right....
 
Mesabi Miner said:
In other news... Did you hear that Compass will NOT be receiving the CRJ from Mesaba??? Turns out the FAA got wind that no training program, manuals, etc exist and put a stop to that. Rumor on the street is that NWA cancelled XJ's reduced flying for the CRJ. Looks like both to remain under the XJ flag for now...

What is the source of this info? There is nothing on MyMesaba. (not that I expect good news of any type there)
 
That damned ALPA magazine cover put me over the top.
A few months back I received word from my LEC that I had gotten one unsolicited vote for LEC Captain’s rep. Either I have some friggin brokebacker out there, or one of my f/o’s got a kick out of my capricious cockpit rants about the state of the airline biz. Well, thanks Mr. Brokebacker. ‘Preciate the thumbs up.
But I don’t want that job.
But I will take Woerth’s job.
Vote for me for Woerth’s job. That’s the one I want. My platform: I have voted "no" on all concessionary contracts and even Contract 2000 because it was ridiculous cronyism inside more “Delta Dot” bully pattern bargaining.
And when I get to Herndon, all hell is going to break lose:
I am going to walk in and fire all the senior vps and executives that have their mustachioed pics on the back of my way too expensive glossy magazine. No more mustaches. I have never trusted dudes in mustaches and I never will. They look old, tired, and stupid. Studies show that they are insecure.
I will fire three quarters of the staff. We don’t need them. We will have three divisions. Safety, Legal, Admin. Safety is number one. It has always been number one. It will always be number one. Nuff said. Yet, I am sick and tired of LAHSO-like blurbs in my glossy magazine. Could care a less.
Here’s what I care about: Starbucks. Yep.
So at Herndon, I am going to have an emergency-there-is-a-new-sheriff-in-town meeting out on the front steps in the sun so we can get a tan and start looking cool. I will have a megafrickin’phone if need be and start laying down da rules.
First. No friggin mustaches.
Second, I am cutting my salary by two thirds. My predecessor didn’t deserve his half a million dollar annual salary, nor do I.
Third. All pilots in ALPA national need to fly a trip twice a month. So get your asses back in the sims and get qualed. This is as mandatory as the “up or out” policy that will also be mandated for all ALPA pilots.
Fourth. I want my legal team to get up here next to me by the steps so that they can hear every word I say. You, the legal team, will pull an all-nighter. Just like some of our ALPA pilots are doing tonight. You will give me a legal memorandum showing all points of law, precedent, case law, rules, regulations, secondary, and tertiary sources and authority that show me proper interpretations of the Railway Labor Act and its progeny.
I want to know where on earth it shows why because of inter-airline systemic management overreach we cannot serve a Section 6 notice representing all ALPA collective bargaining agreements with the sole intention of eliminating the commoditization of our salaries, healthcare, and retirement by base lining these big three in all ALPA contracts.
One wage per ALPA seat per aircraft type, one healthcare plan, and a retirement plan. If it takes National Mediation Board arbitration, so be it.
Fifth. We will have a press conference tomorrow at 0730 in front of the all the press and TV cameras. We will all have Starbucks mocha freakin’ cappuccinos in hand and we will explain our cause.
Sixth. That we are now following the Starbucks model of labor. Coffee is now scarcer than ever before. Starbucks, instead of taking money from the coffee pourers salary to cover their increased costs, increases the price of that venti latte double mocha frappafreakinchino. Das right. The consumer takes the concession, not the laborer. The new ALPA will not give up anymore wage, medical, retiree concessions for the consumer so that they can have new Red Carpet in the clubs or bigger seats for their fat asses because ticket prices are so low that they can afford more Egg McMuffins making them fatter and fatter and the seats and snackboxes bigger and bigger.
If mismanagement mismanages the business during the timeline of a bargaining agreement, like they historically always will in a highly capitalized, low margin business with a highly perishable product, they should not be allowed to take from the laborer to give to the consumer. Nor should they take from the laborer to give to the company. For whatever reason, ever since the Deregulation Act, ALPA-Past has allowed this. Not anymore.
One wage per ALPA seat per aircraft type baby. I will explain to the TV cameras why the airbus first officer seat is the ALPA median seat and should baseline at $130 bucks an hour in 2006 dollars for all ALPA carriers.
So get to work lawyers. On my desk before news conference show time.
Seven. Oh yeah. Secretaries, get your plump overpaid butts out of your chairs and call all MEC reps. They will surround me at the press conference at 0730 with their frappyfrickin’chinos as well. If they are late, their fired. If they have mustaches. They are fired.
Forget talking to Congress. From now on we will only talk to the press and set the facts straight. No more putting out fact fires crisis management bogus BS. All facts come through weekly PRESS conferences. At 0730, with coffee cups and tan, I will explain all sorts of things to the press about the new ALPA including the big three, the proper wage for ALPA pilots taking the risk of negotiating in the FAA system each day, along with the inability to transfer their skill set mid career stream and consequent need to protect it. Along with fatigue and safety issues; along with bankruptcy overreach, along with the aforementioned Starbucks model of labor. Stay tuned. It will be good.
Eight. New ALPA believes in competition-not crisis management lobbyism. Historically, the strongest unions are businesses. ALPA has never done this and pattern bargains. Couple this with the weakness of its white collar cave to concession constituents, it is one of the weakest unions of all time. Therefore, all factors- other than the big three- in a collective bargaining agreement are deemed competitive factors, and distinct and separate.
Each ALPA carrier and LECs can negotiate to their hearts content these items to navigate through the highly competitive airline environment. Go for it. But don’t mess with the Big Three. They only will be negotiated through National. So, for example, if you want to be efficient United pilots, get rid of those overpaid bunkies and get an “up or out” policy. And those leather jackets. Your killing me with the leather jackets. And why did not every pilot sell their claim? What didn’t you see? Never, ever, ever invest in an airline. It’s at best a bet. Come on people. And get rid of that damned Board of Director seat; we are a union, the stench of conflict of interest is ominous. Yet, if that is what you want to stay “competitive” so be it.
In other words, you separate airline councils and pilot groups are welcome to schadenfreude-hoping for the worst of other ALPA pilot brethren- your way like a mother through all other competitive, commoditized, negotiable items in CBA’s, but don’t eff with the big three for any of my ALPA pilots or I will shave more than your mustache.
Nine. I repeat. No more intra-airline negotiating of the Big Three. In toto only baby. Lawyers, pull your all nighter and show me where it says I can’t do this. I repeat, no more pattern bargaining of the big three.
Ten. We believe in competition. Therefore, we will treat ALPA like a business. That is: maximize rate of return for wages, work rules, medical, and retirement is our mandate. Oh yeah, safety as well. Blah. Blah. Blah.
Eleven. I am still pissed at ALPA-past for keeping the retirement multiplier for the A-Plan as a commodity to be negotiated in collective bargaining agreements. Idiots. They should have taken those funds out of the system years ago. Ruined it for the retirees. Those bastids.
Oh yeah, if I see one more mustachioed pilot preflighting a horizontal stab on the cover of that damned magazine, I think I will kill myself (and then some of you get to move up a number).
Welcome one, welcome all. ALPA National President. Vote for me. That’s the job I want.
 
I'll vote for you!

Of course, I'm not a status rep at the moment, so ...

Anywho, I'm for your platform.
 
The fact that you guys applaud that nonsense is just sad. Nothing but a bunch of mindless drivel.
 
I'm a jb scab/wage whore/all-around bad person -- can I still vote for you?
 
PCL_128 said:
The fact that you guys applaud that nonsense is just sad. Nothing but a bunch of mindless drivel.

Like you should even be commenting on...anything. I'm sure folks are reconsidering because you have spoken.
 
PCL_128 said:
The fact that you guys applaud that nonsense is just sad. Nothing but a bunch of mindless drivel.

You must be blind to the agony of this industry, or just sport'n a mustache...
Unfortunatley, the ALPA of yesterday has not caught up to the problems plaguing the industry today.
 
PCL_128 said:
The fact that you guys applaud that nonsense is just sad. Nothing but a bunch of mindless drivel.

It's better mindless drivel than any of the other mindless drivel that comes out of Herndon on a day to day basis. Woerthless has got to go.
 
Mgmt1Plt - that may have been the best post (or repost, I don't care) ever put on the Flightinfo board.
PCL_128 said:
The fact that you guys applaud that nonsense is just sad. Nothing but a bunch of mindless drivel.
But PCL, he sounds like you....
Each ALPA carrier and LECs can negotiate to their hearts content these items to navigate through the highly competitive airline environment. Go for it. But don’t mess with the Big Three. They only will be negotiated through National. So, for example, if you want to be efficient United pilots, get rid of those overpaid bunkies and get an “up or out” policy. And those leather jackets. Your killing me with the leather jackets. And why did not every pilot sell their claim? What didn’t you see? Never, ever, ever invest in an airline. It’s at best a bet. Come on people. And get rid of that danged Board of Director seat; we are a union, the stench of conflict of interest is ominous. Yet, if that is what you want to stay “competitive” so be it.
In other words, you separate airline councils and pilot groups are welcome to schadenfreude-hoping for the worst of other ALPA pilot brethren- your way like a mother through all other competitive, commoditized, negotiable items in CBA’s, but don’t eff with the big three for any of my ALPA pilots or I will shave more than your mustache.
Nine. I repeat. No more intra-airline negotiating of the Big Three.
PCL, is it his position on the mustache that bothers you?
 
Mgmt1Plt - another furlough vote for you! Good on ya bro! You remind me of Ray Miller DTW MEC. Good thoughts, well written. What ever you do keep the recall to 14 years eh?!?!?!

As for PCL - Keep flying your commuter plane and sit back and watch!

Baja.
 

Latest resources

Back
Top Bottom