Trickle down economics and the airlines

[CiFIknow]

The "Trickle Down" theory was something coined by the Democratic Party in the 80's when they were opposing Regan. However, if you look throughout history and basic economic theory, that is the way things work. The people with money invest money in ventures that employ the "less fortunate" and give them jobs and money to spend. Look at the development of the trans-continental railroad. It was Eastern money that met with Western money that gambled millions (in a day that millions meant something) on something that may or may not work. In the meantime thousands of workers were paid to construct the railroad and after it was constructed millions of people prospered because of a few people with money who were willing to gamble on a very high risk venture. Sure, the original investors benefitted greatly. But so did so many others. If it wasn't for the original venture capitalists the railway would have never happened. At least not as soon as it did. I'm sure there were shady deals and shinanigans that occurred during the process. But, we as a nation, cannot deny the value of those who chose to risk the money they had for the prospect of gaining on their investment. I can relate a similar story in regards to the iron mining industry in my home in Northeastern Minnesota. It was Eastern money that gambled on that as well. It never would have been found as soon as it was if it weren't for people with money that wanted to make more money. Generations have been employed by the ambition of the "rich" who existed a hundred years ago. It is all "trickle down". Money is like water. It does not flow up hill. I, like all of you, are part of the "middle class". But at least I am able to say that nobody owes me anything. If I wanted to be a millionaire I wouldn't be flying an airplane. I would own the damned thing. If I had the desire and creativity to be a money guy I could be I'm sure. I just have an affliction for aviation.

Sorry for rambling.

 

[Soverytired]

Soverytired

I've seen you post and, while I don't agree with all you say, it appears to me you raise some good points (I remember your posts regarding Go)
I think you quit Mesa and went to another regional.
So, my question is, if you're flying for a regional, why do you think you would not better under Obamas plan??

Heh. Well, no longer at the regionals: Mesa abused me so much it gave me the much needed kick in the pants to actually look for better work. Found it about 2 years ago and I couldn't be happier. But Mesa was my first love; even though she turned out to be a 1st class be-yotch, I still troll around the regional forum for news on how the ole' whore is doing.

"If you're flying for a regional, why would you not be better under Obama? "

• Your federal taxes will rise. I know the spiel about no taxes for those under the $250k/yr bracket; it's impossible, and no serious economist believes it. Both the 1st Bush and Clinton reneged on their tax promises: Obama will be no different, and I think he's left himself plenty of wiggle room for this.

• Health care is likely to go to a single payer system. While you may not like your current plan, it's unlikely a single payer system will be either better or cheaper (think "public schools", "public DMV", "public restrooms", "public post office", etc.).
• The FAA and ATC are unlikely to be reformed in any fundamental way. It will get more expensive, however . . . do you think BO would threaten mass firings if, say, controllers went on strike? Guess what . . either way, the flying public and your airline will pay for all this.
• Ditto the TSA. Shouldn't they be making $50-$75k/year? Aren't they loyal, hard working Americans who are critical to your flying safety? Once BO lets them organize, they'll have the fate of your airline in their hands.
• Fuel costs will rise. BO talks about alternative energy, but I don't think he means it. Subsidizes for solar, wind, and ethanol, high carbon taxes for airplanes .. yes. Nuclear, coal, and oil . . no.
• The economy will stagnate. I don't know this for a fact, but with taxes on the rise and government spending going on like crazy, it's unlikely the economy will grow like gangbusters. Legacies and SWA will survive. Regional lift and leisure-travel airlines won't, at least not like they do now.
• The end of 401(k)'s. This reason alone would be enough for me not to vote for ANY candidate who failed to vociferously defend the sanctity of the 401(k) plan . . a plan that encourages hard work and long term individual planning.
• A terrorist attack is far more likely. I'm not Muslim, but it would seem that Allah hates airplanes.

And so on, and so forth. Actually, my oposition to Obama goes far, far beyond mere concerns about long term viability of the aviation industry.

No point pontificating: everyone should know by now what to expect from BO, Pelosi, and Reid when they have the reins.

 

[Soverytired]

What makes you think I didn't spend decades of hard work and sacrifice to get where I am? Oh I know, I'm a girl and got hired just because I have tits. Of course!

Darl'n, no one here mentions your gender more than you. I assure you, 99.9% don't give a flying "f" what you have between your legs or that your mammaries are bigger than [most of] our "moobs" .

The male pilots you fly with assume you were hired because you can a.) fly and b.) successfully completed an interview process. Just like everyone else.

20 years ago, women pilots were pioneers who had to put up with unbelievable amounts of "shirt". Now, they're just another interchangeable cog in the wheel. They're great girl pilots, they're poor girl pilots . . but for the most part they're just average.

(Just like guy pilots. Interchangeable. Average. With Moobs.)

 

[CiFIknow]

Funny how nobody bashes Microsoft for being successful or Bill Gates for being one of the richest men in the world. Yet, everyone is so quick to bash "Big Oil", and the unnamed CEO's that work for those companies for their extreme profits. Give me an iPod and iTunes and I'll be happy. Make me participate in a world economy coupled with crazy speculation about oil prices and I'm gonna get pissed. Yeah, that's long-term planning.

 

[pipe]

Funny how nobody bashes Microsoft for being successful or Bill Gates for being one of the richest men in the world. Yet, everyone is so quick to bash "Big Oil", and the unnamed CEO's that work for those companies for their extreme profits. Give me an iPod and iTunes and I'll be happy. Make me participate in a world economy coupled with crazy speculation about oil prices and I'm gonna get pissed. Yeah, that's long-term planning.

There's a considerable difference between innovation and extortion.

PIPE

 

[fastback]

Hahaha, the rich "create jobs". That's a good one. Your reasoning is just a result of you being scammed by trickle down economics. The rich do not want to create jobs. They want to maximize profits.

If McCain takes over, he will wage war on the middle class and pretty much destroy it. There will only be rich and poor in the US. And when the economy gets to be so bad that know one can afford to spend, the rich "job creators" won't be able to create any jobs because there will be no one able to spend money on their product.

I mean, I can completely understand supporting McCain if that person was a multimillionaire and/or financially independent for life. But for middle class workers like airline pilots to support McCain, someone who has spit in the face of the profession, and vote against someone like Obama who is fighting for you and other hard working, motivated middle class americans is beyond me. People have the nerve to think Obama is fighting for unmotivated poor bums. No, Obama is fight for everyone on this board making less than 250k. Airline pay has been going down and Airline CEO pay has been going up.

But anyways it looks like most Americans have been paying attention to what happened the last four years and have come to the conclusion that we CANNOT afford 4 more years of George Bush type foolishness.

George Bush and John McCain are out of ideas, they are out of touch, and if you stand with me, in 17 days they'll be out of time-Obama.

You must work at a job created by a poor person.

 

[Smacktard]

You must work at a job created by a poor person.

Don't even bother, he's a Twenty something wunderkid fresh out of school, full of naive, pie-in-sky idealism and the best stick ASA has. I already asked him how many jobs he created this week and I haven't gotten the answer. He's been so abused by the greedy rich that he's already formed the answer to capitalism. If you stand with him, you'll find out what it is...

 

[heywatchthis]

"I"

Did you ever notice how many times Obama says the word "I" when he gives a speech?

I guess he will fix everything. Just let Obama and the FED government solve all your problems. Give the FEDs all your money because the bigger the government the better they can fix everything.

RIGHT?

 

[Deadalus]

The old disparity argument. Care to back it up with some facts? Show us please the census or income data that shows more people moving up into the top tax bracket and people in the middle moving down the brackets, this I would love to see.

Are you really that stupid? Do an internet search on the middle class dissappearing and you'll get articles and data up the ying yang. Don't forget the top 1% used to pay an income tax of 70%, now it is less than 30%. Say you're someone like my grandfather that makes millions a year, if you're taxed at 70% you still have over a million left over. That's hardly making things equal(communist=bad). He doesn't pay 70% though, in fact with all the tax breaks from the 80's change in tax codes he pays about 10%. I've got news for you, the wealthy love you're ignorance. Can you say, "Baaaahhhhh"?

 

[777forever]

Don't even bother, he's a Twenty something wunderkid fresh out of school, full of naive, pie-in-sky idealism and the best stick ASA has. I already asked him how many jobs he created this week and I haven't gotten the answer. He's been so abused by the greedy rich that he's already formed the answer to capitalism. If you stand with him, you'll find out what it is...

I create plenty of jobs with my spending. With the middle class spending, this opens up more jobs because of more business. Without this business, there is absolutely no need to create new jobs.

Under McCain's tax plan corporations like the airlines will get a tax break. The middle class not so much. That means demand for air travel will stay the same or go down.

Do you think the airlines since they have more money due to tax breaks will create more jobs with demand remaining the same or decreasing?

Now if the middle class gets a tax break and can actually afford air travel increasing demand, don't you think that is a better indication of job creation?

But nah, don't listen to me, keep on believing McCain and his "prosperity trickles down" jibberish that has been proven over and over not to work due to an overlooked human element, GREED.

Look for a landslide win for Obama on the 4th. And once again, I don't want to hear it when you get a bigger check in the mail.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I can tell you as someone who has experience as a small business owner. Trickle Down Economic works. I was planning on expanding this business, but with the higher taxes that are almost a reality, I am going to do nothing of the sort.
Just watch as you see millions of people hit the street when their tax liability increases. It is a fact of life.

 

[Smacktard]

I create plenty of jobs with my spending. With the middle class spending, this opens up more jobs because of more business. Without this business, there is absolutely no need to create new jobs.

Under McCain's tax plan corporations like the airlines will get a tax break. The middle class not so much. That means demand for air travel will stay the same or go down.

Do you think the airlines since they have more money due to tax breaks will create more jobs with demand remaining the same or decreasing?

Before I rant, know this, the first money spent, on anything, a new business, a new airport, a new railroad etc is spent hiring people to do the work. So which comes first, the business man creating the business or the consumer spending the money at the man's business?

On to the main point. Who do think pays the taxes when the government increases corporate tax rates? The business or the consumer?

The left loves to think of the economy as a simple system in a vacuum; make one change here, and only that value changes. What actually happens to a company when faced with increased taxes is that, get ready, they pass the costs along to the consumer. Hhuuuhh, say it ain't so? And the consumer will change their habits.

Under Bush, with those evil tax cuts, we are at the highest level we have ever achieved with regard to personal and business tax revenues as a percentage of GDP. Higher than in the Clinton years. Higher tax rates return lower revenus. It's a very simple concept. Currently, both individual and corporate tax rates are achiving what is very hard to balance, collecting record revenue without adversly affecting the revenue stream.

Return to higher tax rates and this record revenue will go down. And with it goes all of the new spending to help achieve 'Economic Justice', that is Obama's newly reveiled phrase, right?

Now if the middle class gets a tax break and can actually afford air travel increasing demand, don't you think that is a better indication of job creation?

But nah, don't listen to me, keep on believing McCain and his "prosperity trickles down" jibberish that has been proven over and over not to work due to an overlooked human element, GREED.

You did miss Econ 101, capitalism in any form is 'trickle down'. That's the way wealth and a monetary system work. In a vacuum, with perfect compition and moral men, it would work well with little government intervention. But obviously that's the not the environment we live in. Yes, government regulation is necessary but hang on Sally, not by taking from those that have achieved and giving to those that haven't. Grab your little slogans and go save the world, only leave this place alone because it's worked better here than ANYWHERE else in the planet's history.

Look for a landslide win for Obama on the 4th. And once again, I don't want to hear it when you get a bigger check in the mail.

I'll be sure to check my pay stubs, can't wait for this 'free' money! How close are you to the bottom btw?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I can tell you as someone who has experience as a small business owner. Trickle Down Economic works. I was planning on expanding this business, but with the higher taxes that are almost a reality, I am going to do nothing of the sort.
Just watch as you see millions of people hit the street when their tax liability increases. It is a fact of life.

Would you be able to even start that business if it were not for your unionized paycheck and days off each month?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Increase wages..... oh the horror!!!!

 

[antix12]

Funny how nobody bashes Microsoft for being successful or Bill Gates for being one of the richest men in the world. Yet, everyone is so quick to bash "Big Oil", and the unnamed CEO's that work for those companies for their extreme profits. Give me an iPod and iTunes and I'll be happy. Make me participate in a world economy coupled with crazy speculation about oil prices and I'm gonna get pissed. Yeah, that's long-term planning.

I don't have the exact numbers since this is just a quick reply to your post, but from what I understand Bill Gates would by far be the richest person in the history of the world had he not given away so much of his money and donated it through the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation. He has personally donated billions of dollars. The people in charge in the oil industry are a whole different breed from the people in the tech industry. Most of the people who made it big in the 80's and 90's with the tech boom are very big philanthropists and are trying to use their wealth to help better the world.