Training Programs

[Jetter2]

Hey all,
I just wanted to get yall's input on diffrent "programs" designed to help get people into the biz. Feel free to throw anything out there.

Delta Connection Academy

AllATPs

Mesa Pilot Development Group

Continental's Pilot Development Program

4-year College like ERAU, LATech, UND



The MAPD program looks very enticing, but with everyone hating Mesa so much, what are the chances of actually getting to move up into a better carrier if everyone hates who you work for?

 

[labbats]

If there was a shortcut way out of making less than minimum wage for two years after racking up $50K in debt, I'd have found it. Unless you've got money to burn, then buckle down for a long haul of paying dues.

MAPD allows for you to get an interview and possible employment at 300 hours, but from people I've spoken with you're just a burden. I don't instruct people with paying customers in the back, and neither should Mesa. But that's just my opinion.

If I was to start all over, I'd either hire a wise CFI to teach me and only me all the way through in my own plane, or I'd go to AllATPs.

 

[bafanguy]

Jetter2,


I still think your best bet is the military, either regular tour or guard/reserves. If you've got a college degree or are getting one, look into the military option. If in college, maybe ROTC as a route in.

You'll get a better reception in the employment office having been a military pilot and you won't have spent your own money. Just a thought.

 

[Jetter2]

I have thought long and hard about it
The Military just isn't the route for me.

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

Saint Cloud State University has a program. Can't say if it is good or bad, but thus far my experience has been good. You get the exelent ground training of a 141 combined with the flexibility of a 61 flight part. Aircraft prices are dirt cheap (all flight is under $30k if you work your ass off and make the times which are reasonable).

The college is a normal state college so you will have to take non-flight courses and the place isn't a sausage fest (teaching department is pretty big here sooooooo ). If you are willing to work, you can do it in 3 years with all the flight ratings.

You can also take out student loans and they have a form that allows you to use the flight costs as part of the FASFA aid needed form.

 

[350DRIVER]

labbats,

It is better to sometimes keep your mouth shut when you don't have a clue about what you are talking about.

MAPD allows for you to get an interview and possible employment at 300 hours, but from people I've spoken with you're just a burden. I don't instruct people with paying customers in the back, and neither should Mesa.

What a complete and absolute fukcing joke. Knock the chip off of your shoulder, it will do you no good in this industry. These grads of this program are viewed no differently than any other Mesa Airlines pilot, they are indeed safe, qualified, and proficient by the time they are 121 line qualified. I absolutely love it, you think these guys get a "break" due to the fact that they are hired on with less than 300 hours. Well "young one" let me explain to you how this works, 121 training is 121 training, they don't have one 121 training program for those that come out of the MAPD program and a different training set up for those that are hired at 2000 hours total time. These MAPD grads are put through the same training, same ground school, sim training, same oral, same checkride, same IOE, etc, you should get the idea.. Get real bud, a burden? I think not and that is not the general consensus of the Mesa pilot group concerning these guys.


A good friend of mine is a senior check airman there at Mesa and he has had nothing but good things to say about these MAPD folks, it is folks like yourself that are bitter partially due to the fact that you didn't make it to the airlines at 300 hours, as I have previously stated, knock the chip off your shoulder... You want to bash someone or a company then do it with facts, not BS that is completely untrue and makes no sense.


No matter who you are, if you cannot pass training and you are NOT up to company standards then you do NOT make it to the line, bottom line, it is called "washing out". Does not matter whether or not you are a MAPD grad or a 2500 hour CFI, you both are still required to pass ALL areas of the 121 training program prior to making it to the line, simple as that.


As for the comment directed towards "I don't instruct people with paying customers in the back, and neither should Mesa", refer to the above to see that this is pretty much complete BS as well out of envy towards those folks.


No one is given a free ride in this industry, MAPD grads are held up to just as high if not higher standards than those hired off of the streets whether you want to admit it or not. Facts are facts no matter how badly you may want to dispute them.


I have flown with a few ex- Mesa guys that did at one point attend the MAPD program and I can tell you that I would probably pick a 300 hour "qualified" pilot over you on most days of the week, most were nothing less than superb.

A lot of those "under-qualified" MAPD grads as you like to refer to them as are currently at America West, Southworst, ATA, Air Tran, and many others if that makes you feel any better?!?!?!?!! They are there to pay there dues, build the 121 time, upgrade, and move on to greener pastures.


If you want to dispute something that is worth this board's time than bring it on, if you have nothing of substance as you have demonstrated here then keep it to yourself since it just makes you look that much more uninformed.

The MAPD program looks very enticing, but with everyone hating Mesa so much, what are the chances of actually getting to move up into a better carrier if everyone hates who you work for?

Jetter2,

Who are these guys that "hate" Mesa so much and who really cares? Most in the industry do not treat these guys any less than any other carrier. You are there for one reason, build time and leave. **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**taco Chitaco , Peanuckle, and most other regionals are not much better than Mesa, take a look at the contracts before you buy into this stuff. I can tell you that no one really cares who you fly for, this board is full of "opinion", most wouldn't have the balls to say things in real life. . If is easy to hide behind a screen name and "hate" a specific airline but who really fukcing cares? I surely don't and I don't treat Mesa pilots any different than any other regional pilot.

What are the chances to move on?!?! Let's just say Mesa pilots have been moving on to every major airline all across the board since forever. . Those on the interview boards could care less where they flew at. The current chief pilot at Mesa is currently awaiting a class date with Southworst. May have recently fled Mesa for Air Tran, America West, ATA, SWA, etc, so don't let untrue BS effect where you end up going.

If you want to buy into bullsh!t then listen to what some have to say on this board that don't have a clue, would work very well...


3 5 0

 

[de727ups]

Not a Mesa basher....but

"A good friend of mine is a senior check airman there at Mesa and he has had nothing but good things to say about these MAPD folks"

Me too, but what my friend says isn't all good. Do you honestly think just because a guy gets through IOE that he's as good at 300 hours as, say, a 135 freight guy with 2000 hours?

300 hour pilots don't belong in the right seat of a regional airline. Just my opinion...thanks for letting me express it....

 

[bobbysamd]

MAPD and Comair, ahem, Delta Connection Academy, and ERAU

I have experiences with all. I instructed at MAPD in 1993. While I did not care at all for Mesa Airlines as a company, I liked the program because it works. You are trained the Mesa way from the beginning. As long as you stay with the program and don't ruffle any feathers, Mesa Airlines will interview you at 300 hours. You earn a college degree to boot.

Mesa Airlines is not every pilot's favorite company, but look at it pragmatically. The experience you gain there is recognized everywhere. Build what you need and when the time comes, move on.

I interviewed at Comair in 1991. My complete story about that "interview" can be found elsewhere on the board. The long and short of it is I paid my way two-thousand miles for a 20-minute (at the most) interview with the Chief Flight Instructor and perhaps a 1.2 flight with some senior instructor. I was not hired, but I was not given the courtesy of a rejection phone call or rejection letter. My "interview" spoke volumes to me about the place - and I'm glad I was not hired. Run a board search on the school and you will obtain similar comments - especially from those who were lied to and/or screwed out of "the interview."

ERAU in Prescott gave me my first real flying job. From my standpoint, it was probably the best aviation job I had. From a student's standpoint, the aviation education is excellent. The flight training, in and of itself, is high quality, but no better or worse than similar schools - though I would say that Riddle provides excellent procedures and flows training. ERAU is expensive. ERAU is known in the industry. ERAU is a very political place, for students and instructors alike, and, for that reason, completing your flight program on time can be challenging. I would recommend ERAU if you can afford it, but if you go, try to ignore the campus instructors who instruct Riddlers in arrogance along with aviation. If you don't, you might antagonize people along the way.

Good luck with wherever you choose to train.

 

[labbats]

I'm not rehashing the same debate I've seen here 100 times, 350Driver. Opinions are like... err, well let's just say there's a lot of them.

I know from my own experience that I thought I knew what was going on at 300 hours, and the fact is that you don't. While I don't doubt that type of streamlined training is helpful, there are some things can't be taught in a classroom. And frankly, I wouldn't want my mom on that plane when the captain has a heart attack. That's my opinion, yours is your own. Seems I struck a nerve, let the poster get all the angles and form his own opinion.

 

[JetBlast2000]

Hey all,
I just wanted to get yall's input on diffrent "programs" designed to help get people into the biz. Feel free to throw anything out there.

Delta Connection Academy

AllATPs

Mesa Pilot Development Group

Continental's Pilot Development Program

4-year College like ERAU, LATech, UND



The MAPD program looks very enticing, but with everyone hating Mesa so much, what are the chances of actually getting to move up into a better carrier if everyone hates who you work for?

Their are lots of good programs out there. You have listed a few. Many factors are involved in choosing the right school.
Do you have a degree?
Can you afford to move?
Do you have a family?
Just a few questions...
If you just want the dirt on the programs, do a search. You'll find tons of opinions. If you want to know what school is good for YOU, give us some more info.

JB2k

 

[Jetter2]

I'm just a 17 year old kid that is going into my Senior Year in HS.

I am willing to move,
I don't have a family,
I don't have a degree,

Any other information? Thats why I am Considering everything, because right now, I can go down almost any path, I just want the best overall choice, and looking for some insight.

 

[JetBlast2000]

Keep the enthusiasm, its great! First and fore most, GO TO COLLEGE! Get a degree live your life have fun… ohh and fly while your doing all the those other things. Find a good school with an Aviation program. Purdue, San Jose State, ERAU to name a few. There a lots out there. Here is a list where you can start.

Talk to your CFI, they can recommend some programs as well. I would recommend apply to the best college you could get into / afford. Since you have one more year of HS left. Try to get your CFI while still in HS. You will have lots of opportunity to teach while in college (extra beer money). Your in a great position. Is money an issue? If not great, full throttle ahead. If it is, try to get a loan through your parents. Bottom line, do as much flying NOW. If you can get you’re airplane that would be a great way to go. When the time comes for you to go away to school, you should have lots of info to go on. If you want more specific advise, ask away.

Good luck

JB2k

BTW-don’t believe everything you read on these boards…

 

[minitour]

I'm just a 17 year old kid that is going into my Senior Year in HS.

I am willing to move,
I don't have a family,
I don't have a degree,

Any other information? Thats why I am Considering everything, because right now, I can go down almost any path, I just want the best overall choice, and looking for some insight.

I don't have a whole lot of information, but here's what I know...

...if I would have known at your point that I wanted to do this, I would have gone to Mesa...as for right now, I'm debating between Mesa and Airman in OK...I've heard very good things about both programs, but for me Airman is probably the way as I won't be able to be gone from home for 19 months...

If I were you, I'd start looking into MAPD, but thats just my opinion...good luck!

-mini

 

[350DRIVER]

"A good friend of mine is a senior check airman there at Mesa and he has had nothing but good things to say about these MAPD folks"

Me too, but what my friend says isn't all good. Do you honestly think just because a guy gets through IOE that he's as good at 300 hours as, say, a 135 freight guy with 2000 hours?

300 hour pilots don't belong in the right seat of a regional airline. Just my opinion...thanks for letting me express it....

de,

If the guy isn't "good" at 300 hours coming out of the Mesa program then there is absolutely no reason whatsoever under the sun that he should even make it to the line in the first place. . . These guys are given no "free pass", "free ride", or anything along those lines so when you compare a low time MAPD grad to a seasoned 135 pilot then there is really no difference (in my opinion) once they are "line qualified" since the objective from day 1 was to make sure that they were up to Mesa training department standards as well as those standards that the FAA requires of new hires. If they cannot make it they wash out, simple as that. I can see the "old school" reasoning/mentality that you have is coming from but the bottom line is that this program works, has worked very well for years, and will continue to work well for many more years to come whether you like it or not, approve or disapprove of it. If you want the "fastest" route then this is by far the best way to go in my opinion, hands down.

This is nothing new folks, the military has been putting 300 hour guys into fighter jets for a long long time, it has everything to do with the "experience" and "quality" behind the flight time and very little if anything to do with the "quantity" of it. . . More is not always better and I think you have a very good example here. I have flown with 10,000 hour + pilots who made me scratch my head on many occasions and I have also flown with 500 hour pilots who were top notch, you cannot judge a pilot based solely on his/her experience. It has everything to do with "experience", if you want flight time then just pencil whip the logbook, much easier and less problems.


You may think that these guys do not belong in the right seat of jets, I disagree completely and think that logic is somewhat flawed but I think the facts pretty much speak for themselves reagarding this issue so I won't continue to beat a dead horse.

The pilots who attend the MAPD program are given absolutely nothing, everything is earned through hard work and dedication. The majority of people that are "against" this practice are those that are "stuck" looking in from the outside who feel that they are owed something by this industry.

I know from my own experience that I thought I knew what was going on at 300 hours, and the fact is that you don't. While I don't doubt that type of streamlined training is helpful, there are some things can't be taught in a classroom. And frankly, I wouldn't want my mom on that plane when the captain has a heart attack. That's my opinion, yours is your own. Seems I struck a nerve, let the poster get all the angles and form his own opinion.

Have you shared the flight deck with a MAPD grad? I didn't think so... You are forming opinions without any form of substance or evidence to back up your statements. Although... some would say that a Yugo drives the same as a Mercedes so I guess I can see where you are coming from.. God do I love all the great information that a young guy can obtain from flightinfo.com. ( a tad of sarcasm injected) but not too too much. You didn't "strike a nerve", I am just not a fan of incorrect information being thrown at someone. If you can back the statements up then I am all for a "debate", but saying a guy doesn't belong in a jet at 300 hours makes very little sense to me.

My hat is off to Mr. Rich Castle, keep up the good work out there in Farmington. Sure it is just a matter of time before he steps in here...

Mesa Airlines is not every pilot's favorite company, but look at it pragmatically. The experience you gain there is recognized everywhere. Build what you need and when the time comes, move on.

Mr. bobby, I cannot agree with you more but what "regional" with the exception of a select few would one want to retire with?!?! It is nothing more than a stepping stone and paying those oh so famous dues. My friend, next time in Denver we surely are going to do the BBQ and Beer together, my treat and will try and make it there soon. Even a few hours of flight time is coming your way.


3 5 0

Rich, tell Scotty Mc. that he better work those sims more and get off of reserve at ATA.

 

[de727ups]

"The majority of people that are "against" this practice are those that are "stuck" looking in from the outside who feel that they are owed something by this industry."

Does that sound like me?

The military agrument doesn't hold water with me. You are compairing MAPD training to US military training and screening. No comparison in my book.

 

[bobbysamd]

College

I don't have a degree . . . .

The first, and most important, piece of advice:

Go to an accredited college. Earn a four-year degree.

Despite discussion to the contrary, a college education will stand you in good stead no matter what you decide. Going to college should be a higher priority right now than deciding which way to proceed for a flying career.

 

[350DRIVER]

bobby,

A good majority of pilots who do not have the degree (4 year) upon completion of this program will complete it online via a correspondence course with an accredited university/college while they are flying the line. It is better to kill two birds with one stone in my opinion. . Finishing up the degree makes much more sense to do it this way versus the other way around since in reality upon completion of the 19 month program you will have the two year degree, all licenses/ratings needed, etc, all that one now needs to do is "finish up". . Most of the programs that these pilots are using to finish up the 4 - year degree will also give you X amount of credit hours for your licenses/ratings, flight hours, and your "work experience". You are wasting absolutely no time by going this route and it is also the most convenient in my opinion which makes much more sense from my perspective. Either way will work but if you want to fly sooner than later then this is the way that I would go if I were you.

3 5 0

 

[bobbysamd]

Accelerated college attendance

I recommend finishing college as soon as possible for young pilots for a couple of reasons. For one thing, you are still in school mode and study mode after finishing high school. The longer you are away from school, the harder it is to get back into that mode. I learned that first-hand after starting paralegal school twenty-one years after my last college class.

The other reason is once you start working it's hard to go back to school, especially via correspondence courses or distance learning. People always say they'll go back to school but keep pushing it off. I feel it's better to get college out of the way, have the degree in hand, and then concentrate on flying, without the college worry in the back of your mind.

High school kids who are really organized can plan ahead and finish college in three years or less. They could go to summer school so they graduate in January instead of June. Upon graduation, they could enter college as first-semester/quarter freshman. Go to summer school and by the end of the fall they could complete close to a full year's work. Keep up the plan and be finished in three years, graduating before they are twenty-two. Kids who can take AP courses in high school would really have it made because some of these courses earn college credits.

I realize this plan is ambitious (and tedious), but it's doable, and you don't necessarily have to be an Einstein to do it. I have heard of college athletes (jocks) who graduate in three years by going to summer school. I realize that going to summer school sucks - I've done it and it does suck - but it may be worth it in the long run for completing college faster.

Just a little more food for thought on an important issue.

 

[Jetter2]

My parents are going to pay $40k for my college. Now I can spend ALL of that at ATP, or I can spend all of that on college.

My plan:
Finish up HS this spring
Summer of 05: Start taking classes at Jr. College, get that much farther ahead. Go to Summer Semester, Fall, Spring, and Summer semester, so by fall of 06' I got my 2 years of Jr. College out of the way.

Join up with ATP and (hopefully, hopefully!!) land a job with them, so I can build time.

If I can get on with some regional carrier, thad' just seal the deal! Regional Pilots seem to average about two weeks off a month. With a flight line time of 72hrs, that should leave time for me to squeeze in time for the last two years of my degree.

 

[labbats]

How will you pay for that degree on $20k a year?

I'd consider some kind of online degree program. But the community college is a wise move. I got a lot of tough classes done for cheap that way, and eventually still earned a Big Ten degree just like everyone else who went there from day one.