Training Contracts, are they Enforceable?

[flydog]

Its all about integrity. If you promise to stay wether you have a contract or not you stay unless there is a mitigating circumstance.

At my company if you wish to upgrade to a larger aircraft such as a Challenger they require a 1 yr contract. Its a $32,000 type rating so they dont realize much return on their investement if you leave for an airline after 3 months. Also they could choose to bypass promoting from within and hire street Captains. I prefer the contract. Also if they fire you or let you go for whatever reason the contract is null and void. It is only if you quit.

As far as signing a contract with a new company I would try to make it a 2 way contract in that whatever promises they make are binding on them or the contract is void. If they are not willing to do this then the job isnt worth it and the promises they make are empty.

In my opinion if a company entices you to take a job by promoting rapid upgrade (we have all heard that one) and when the time comes they hire off the street because its cheaper I say screw them and their contract. Integrity is a two way street

Also keep in mind that wether a contract in enforceable or not is irrelevant when you spend $30,000 to defend yourself from a lawsuit.

 

[skydiverdriver]

Jim
Who cares if they are legal? Well, I do. Because if they are illegal, then it's the company's integrity that we should call into question, not the pilot's.

 

[Dep676]

I still don't think they are worth the paper they are written on. But now a days the way the market is I would think companies wouldn't make you sign them. I would just be happy to have a job. I would sign them just to make them happy and would probably stay. I have found the companies that make you sign them either don't pay very well or isn't the greatest place to work anyway. That's just my 2 cents though. If they pay good and treat you good you will probably stay anyway.

 

[skydiverdriver]

Exactly. The place where I had to sign was so difficult to upgrade, that they had to keep you somehow. I liked the job, but without pic time, I was stuck as an FO. I finished my contract, but always wondered if they were legal or not. I think these people keep bringing up the integrity issue because they are employers who know they are not illegal, or other employees who don't want to see someone else excersize their rights. Just my opinion.

 

[Thedude]

I see nobody has metioned a contract signed under duress. The company I work for decided to pop a contract on a new hire class on the first day. Not enforceable due to the fact that all of the new hires had left their previous employment for new employment and the contract was never metioned until the first day of class. Kinda underhanded company tactic by any view.

 

[Corbon]

Airlines will screw you blind if it adds to the bottem line. They're in business to make money, not to make pilots happy. Where do you think unions came from? For those of you who complain about lack of integrity, imagine looking at your company's web site and seeing your name on a termination (not furlough) list with over a hundred other pilots? Then getting a letter in the mail a week later saying "Sorry...you're fired." I hadn't done anything wrong and neither had anyone else. Our only fault is 9/11 happened and we were probationary pilots. I busted my butt for them and I don't even deserve a phone call to hear an actual human explain to me what they were doing and answer any questions I may have? Yeah, thats integrity. The company defended itself by telling us the firings were LEGAL. So if a better offer came up and I could LEGALLY walk out on my 2 year contract I wouldn't feel the least bit guilty. By company definition, if its legal, its ok.

 

[KlingonLRDRVR]

Thedude makes a good point. If you are forced to sign one of those contracts "after the fact" (for example after you got the upgrade training) they are not worth the paper they are written on.

KlingonLRDRVR

 

[bobbysamd]

Duress

That's right. Duress is another matter altogether. In fact, come to think of it, no one ever told me about the contract I signed with FSI until I had completed standardization and just before I was accepted for employment.

Most of the time they're going to shove their standard form under your hand. As Flydog suggested, if you can negotiate a bilateral contract, more power to you.

 

[aero99]

Fly dog hit the nail on the head...
"Also keep in mind that wether a contract in enforceable or not is irrelevant when you spend $30,000 to defend yourself from a lawsuit."

It isn't wheather you will win or lose, it's the fact that a suit will cost you even more money.

Best thing to do is spend 300.00 to have a lawyer go over the contract. Some contracts won't hold up in certain states.

But, even if your lawyer tells you the contract won't hold in court doesn't mean the suit itself won't cost you $$.

Desert quote:
"A standard froum contract prepared by one party, to be signed by the party in a weaker position, usu. a consumer, who has little choice abot the terms- Also termed take-it-or-leave it contract; leonine contract; adhesory contrac; adhesionary contract.

If, the contract is signed from a position of weakness does this affect the enforceability? "

If you sign it you agreed to it. I don't think this is a vaild arguement to get out of the contract. If it was, no contract would be binding.

 

[CL60]

Advantages

Regardless of the legal implications of signing or not signing a contract, I've always concentrated on maintaining a good reputation in my respective industry. I strongly believe that my reputation has helped me get where I am today. E.g., I would not leave a company after obtaining a type rating for at least a year after my checkride even if I had not signed a contract... for no other reason than to maintain a good reputaion in the industry.

Like it or not, some who are concerned with their reputations are sometimes left behind those who do not place as much emphasis on this area or are otherwise forced to break previous commitments. Unfortunately, reputable people are sometimes forced into extremely trying circumstances in order to achieve a neccessary outcome. I know Desert and he has some tough decisions to make. Collecting data is just part of making an infomed decision.

Some are quick to judge in these cases. Is any person here qualified or prepared to judge the character or professionalism of another? Especially based on a few hastily written paragraphs on a message board.

 

[skydiverdriver]

I agree with you that a reputation is a hard earned and very valuable commodity. However, what if you worked at a place that had no such integrity? I have met many a pilot who worked for a small FBO or charter company, where they were poorly paid, asked to do illegal and dangerous things, and then told they would be given a bad report if they left. Would you still feel obligated to keep a good reputation with that person? Perhaps having a good rep with them might give you a bad name to other operators who know how this guy does business. Ever think of that?

I have been lucky enough to work for good operators, and I hope all of you have the same luck. However, not everyone who does something that their employer doesnt' like is a bad person. Sometimes integrity REQUIRES you to do something they don't like.

Anyway, I'm sure the original poster has heard all he needs to know about integrity. His original question was about the legality, and enforcability of training contracts. If you don't know the answer to that question, you really don't need to be telling him something he allready knows. Good luck to all.

 

[skydiverdriver]

PS,
I heard a story about a Mesa class where they asked all the new-hires to sign a contract that they were previously unaware of. They all refused, and the company still trained them. I can't confirm if it's true or not, but if it is, good for you guys. That's the reason we have unions.

 

[CL60]

skydiverdriver,

If you are referring to my post, I would never presume to tell someone what they already know since I flunked mind-reading 101 in college. Did not know you were speaking for Desert now. I'm sure he'll be relieved to know you're watching out for him.

Regardless of contractual legalities, the real issue here is your personal reputation. All the talk of contracts and liabilities boils down to how these issues will impact the individual in question.

I'm sure there are plenty of situations that could arise to force reputable people to make tough choices. (As stated before).

 

[CL60]

Jim,

The rather unorthodox logic employed in skydiverdriver's first post to this thread perplexed me as well. It's actually kind of humorous when you think about it.

What "reputable" person would agree to conduct illegal or dangerous operations? SDD's post insitst that a person of integrity, a reputable person, should trash his own rep because his employer has none as well? This "double-negative" logic system is "interesting" for lack of a more suitable word in this context.

 

[DesertFalcon]

Jim,

I never said I was going to sign a contract then runaway.
I hope you didn't think this was my motive for this question?

I was just wondering if they are binding the way they
are written.

DesertFalcon

So much for integrity.