Total Number of Furloughs This Round So Far

[Lear70]

Oh God, and here we go on a "my operation is better than your operation" between fractional and major.

Here's a hint; there's tools on every side. As a whole, Netjets pilots tend to be pretty arrogant these days (and I have several friends that work over there), but you guys probably don't notice it, as you're all in your own little groups like up at First in TEB.

Was in SNA the other day, didn't get much sleep with a 0430 wakeup call, it was 8:30 in the morning, and I'm in the crew lounge in a barka lounger catching a few z's waiting for our pax, when one of your X captains came in, looked around, went out, then 5 minutes later, just as I'm drifting off, came back in with his crew meal while SINGING LOUDLY ON THE PHONE Happy Birthday to someone.

That particular SNA FBO has a lunch room and another crew lounge upstairs that's not as closed in for people who might NOT want to sleep.

D*ckhead saw me, and continued to YELL into his cell phone anyway. I got up and said, "Thanks for letting me get some sleep" and he just looked at me like I was speaking Russian. Clueless AND classless. Went back towards the bathroom and passed his F/O who was in the break room, asked him why he wasn't with his captain in the lounge and he said, "Well, you were sleeping, and he's a tool, so no thanks, I'll eat here." Cool guy, and respectful of other people.

That's not to say I haven't met my share of arrogant Legacy Captains too, but people are not the end-all be-all of aviation just because of where they work or the aseat they're in, nor is anyone recession-proof. Although Netjets looks pretty good now, all it takes is some changes in the tax code and it won't be such a great shelter anymore. No one is "safe", just some relatively so at this particular moment.

So why don't we quit the bickering and just realize that people make choices and NONE of us know how they'll work out in the end. Slamming a guy for making what looked like a reasonable jump at the BEGINNING of the major hiring curve (when it's historically been a safe time to go when looking at the last 4 decades of hiring/furlough curves), when that was his dream job, is simply petty and asinine.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Oh God, and here we go on a "my operation is better than your operation" between fractional and major.

Here's a hint; there's tools on every side. As a whole, Netjets pilots tend to be pretty arrogant these days (and I have several friends that work over there), but you guys probably don't notice it, as you're all in your own little groups like up at First in TEB.

Was in SNA the other day, didn't get much sleep with a 0430 wakeup call, it was 8:30 in the morning, and I'm in the crew lounge in a barka lounger catching a few z's waiting for our pax, when one of your X captains came in, looked around, went out, then 5 minutes later, just as I'm drifting off, came back in with his crew meal while SINGING LOUDLY ON THE PHONE Happy Birthday to someone.

That particular SNA FBO has a lunch room and another crew lounge upstairs that's not as closed in for people who might NOT want to sleep.

D*ckhead saw me, and continued to YELL into his cell phone anyway. I got up and said, "Thanks for letting me get some sleep" and he just looked at me like I was speaking Russian. Clueless AND classless. Went back towards the bathroom and passed his F/O who was in the break room, asked him why he wasn't with his captain in the lounge and he said, "Well, you were sleeping, and he's a tool, so no thanks, I'll eat here." Cool guy, and respectful of other people.

That's not to say I haven't met my share of arrogant Legacy Captains too, but people are not the end-all be-all of aviation just because of where they work or the aseat they're in, nor is anyone recession-proof. Although Netjets looks pretty good now, all it takes is some changes in the tax code and it won't be such a great shelter anymore. No one is "safe", just some relatively so at this particular moment.

So why don't we quit the bickering and just realize that people make choices and NONE of us know how they'll work out in the end. Slamming a guy for making what looked like a reasonable jump at the BEGINNING of the major hiring curve (when it's historically been a safe time to go when looking at the last 4 decades of hiring/furlough curves), when that was his dream job, is simply petty and asinine.

BRAVO! What I have been telling them for well over a year now...the vocal NJA pilots on FlightInfo have been creating a particularly negative sort of karma for a while now. Funny when we were the highest paid frac at FLOPS, our guys never acted like that. Look how far of a turn for the worse THAT went...

And you are right...it could all easily change if the "owner" (renters) have to actually start paying out of their own pockets with less or no write offs. Not to mention, they run businesses...many of which are or will be tanking in this economy...

(they will deny to the end however, so we are wasting our breath, I assure you).

How long has NJA/Exec Jet been in business? Where was this great pay and job bennies for ALL of those years before recently?

Don't worry, they are immediately voting out the union that got them their "nouveau riches," for an in-house, and will likely end up with NO union, so this will all be moot. Genius.

(BTW...the bold is personality font for those it bothers...like my personality, it will remain...but go ahead and focus on that again, rather than the topic)

PS--- Check out their "validation" thread over on the fracs...can't get that chip off their shoulders no matter what...and need their hugs wherever they can get them. Who needs VALIDATION for whatever their choices? GMAFB

BTW A "well paid hooker" is still a hooker, no matter what she gets paid to service her customer. They always know that deep down, likewise the need for the NJA guys to get pseudo validation. So if you see them on the road, give them a hug...whatever they say on here, TRUST me they have to kill a little bit of their soul every day to fly those "great places" by the services they MUST provide. Don't believe the hype

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Kit will say it's all the more reason to fork over $180 for the privilege of attending a job fair so he can finance a new Porsche.

:beer:

 

[OCP]

Don't worry, they are immediately voting out the union that got them their "nouveau riches," for an in-house, and will likely end up with NO union, so this will all be moot. Genius.

It was the local guys of their IBT that worked so hard for their new contract, with little help from the national level.

 

[Lear70]

BTW A "well paid hooker" is still a hooker, no matter what she gets paid to service her customer. They always know that deep down, likewise the need for the NJA guys to get pseudo validation. So if you see them on the road, give them a hug...whatever they say on here, TRUST me they have to kill a little bit of their soul every day to fly those "great places" by the services they MUST provide. Don't believe the hype

It somewhat sounds like you're describing corporate/charter/fractional work in general, which I particularly like.

Yes, you have to shmooze the owners/clients. So what? That's just the way it is, and I don't mind it, because it's part of the business to give the absolute best in customer service that you can provide. It's something I pride myself on and try to instill in my F/O's.

In the airline world it wasn't quite as much work, but I still tried to go the extra mile for the passengers when they needed something, a stroller carried, a wheelchair pushed to another gate or even terminal, bags stowed in overheads for the little old ladies who brought steamer trunks that barely fit, yes those too. Just part of the job.

If people aren't into this kind of customer service, maybe they should just fly freight. The whole "shmoozing for dollars" isn't why I posted my rant about some of the Netjets pilots and their "elitist" attitude. They're not all like that but there are a surprising number on here who are...

That said, there's some fractionals are charter companies laying off people, too. Hasn't trickled up to Netjets yet and probably won't, their waiting list with deposits is at least a year out, but nothing is safe forever.

 

[whymeworry?]

I estimate 7000-7500 furloughed or COLA'd by END of 2009. Worse in 2010.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Lear70,

You're not accepting PMs anymore. Drop me a note and let me know where you ended up.

 

[Lear70]

Kalitta at the moment...

Cleaned out my PM's, give me a shout.

 

[Bob_Sacamano]

God, what a sad thread. Best wishes, folks.

 

[Captzaahlie]

All due respect, we were looking for a place to hide out for a few years (at the time). These guys were looking to make a career at the "New US".

A carrier with severe revenue/cost/labor issues not resolved since we were furloughed... 6 years prior.

Pilots just ignore the past too much. It's like a re-run.. over and over with a worse ending each time.

with all due respect you are are quite the a hole....
Derinda screwed up when you slithered threw the cracks....

 

[WabiSabi]

Oh God, and here we go on a "my operation is better than your operation" between fractional and major.

Here's a hint; there's tools on every side. As a whole, Netjets pilots tend to be pretty arrogant these days (and I have several friends that work over there), but you guys probably don't notice it, as you're all in your own little groups like up at First in TEB.

Was in SNA the other day, didn't get much sleep with a 0430 wakeup call, it was 8:30 in the morning, and I'm in the crew lounge in a barka lounger catching a few z's waiting for our pax, when one of your X captains came in, looked around, went out, then 5 minutes later, just as I'm drifting off, came back in with his crew meal while SINGING LOUDLY ON THE PHONE Happy Birthday to someone.

That particular SNA FBO has a lunch room and another crew lounge upstairs that's not as closed in for people who might NOT want to sleep.

D*ckhead saw me, and continued to YELL into his cell phone anyway. I got up and said, "Thanks for letting me get some sleep" and he just looked at me like I was speaking Russian. Clueless AND classless. Went back towards the bathroom and passed his F/O who was in the break room, asked him why he wasn't with his captain in the lounge and he said, "Well, you were sleeping, and he's a tool, so no thanks, I'll eat here." Cool guy, and respectful of other people.

That's not to say I haven't met my share of arrogant Legacy Captains too, but people are not the end-all be-all of aviation just because of where they work or the aseat they're in, nor is anyone recession-proof. Although Netjets looks pretty good now, all it takes is some changes in the tax code and it won't be such a great shelter anymore. No one is "safe", just some relatively so at this particular moment.

So why don't we quit the bickering and just realize that people make choices and NONE of us know how they'll work out in the end. Slamming a guy for making what looked like a reasonable jump at the BEGINNING of the major hiring curve (when it's historically been a safe time to go when looking at the last 4 decades of hiring/furlough curves), when that was his dream job, is simply petty and asinine.

That was a good post except for you contradicting yourself by making a broad brushed generalization. One or two anecdotal experiences does not a scientific study make. Get over yourself.

 

[Andy]

Thank God we can all work to age 65. It really makes being furloughed again a lot less painful. (NOT!)

Who could've seen this industry downturn coming and the impact that age 65 would have?

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=1317276

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=1475286

I thank the senior fukcs at alpo for bringing about the age change. I'll get to enjoy another 4+ years on the street thanks to the high retirement numbers at yonited (~1/month).
But I guess the junior guys should be worried about cabotage, eh? alpo sux.

 

[eatme]

Thank God we can all work to age 65. It really makes being furloughed again a lot less painful. (NOT!)

Who could've seen this industry downturn coming and the impact that age 65 would have?

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=1317276

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=1475286

I thank the senior fukcs at alpo for bringing about the age change. I'll get to enjoy another 4+ years on the street thanks to the high retirement numbers at yonited (~1/month).
But I guess the junior guys should be worried about cabotage, eh? alpo sux.

And having a union outside of ALPA would do what to change the state of the industry(change age 65)?

 

[Jonny Sacko]

This is EXPLICITYLY due to Prater that fat ass and the rest of the the SCAB's staying after 60. GET THE FCKU OUT! YOU ALREADY KILLED THE INDUSTRY SCABBING; YOU AREN'T SMART ENOUGH TO HANDLE THE MONEY YOU WILL LOOSE ANYWAY!

 

[Andy]

And having a union outside of ALPA would do what to change the state of the industry(change age 65)?

I trust yonited's (mis)management more than I trust the union.
I'd like an inhouse union, but I'd rather have no union than the current one.

 

[eaglesview]

This is EXPLICITYLY due to Prater that fat ass and the rest of the the SCAB's staying after 60. GET THE FCKU OUT! YOU ALREADY KILLED THE INDUSTRY SCABBING; YOU AREN'T SMART ENOUGH TO HANDLE THE MONEY YOU WILL LOOSE ANYWAY!

Grow up ALPA (of which I am not a fan ) could not have stopped it. By the way how do you "loose" money?

 

[eatme]

I feel for yea dudes who are getting screwed by the current economic climate, but that in no way reflects on the work of many a good dude at ALPA. They brought alot to the table, many things that enable us to work in a more safety conscious environment than without them. Leadership is a different animal altogether. Everyone was bitching about "worthless" and before him, it was someone else's turn in the barrel, etc.
Now having been turned down by United 2x, NW, TWA, AW, I feel it was pure luck that got me to a Major cargo carrier that has so far been immune to these wicked downsides we have seen since 9/11.(also those interview experiences helped-thanx guys). Dude if you lost the faith, so be it. I have seen,correction, many of us have seen lotsa guys fall by the wayside by this dog eat dog industry. Their WILL be a new generation upcoming to the place of those who leave for good-whether they will be wearing turbans or can speak proper engrish is a different matter. Best of luck to you who decide to hang it up, but blaming ALPA for ALL your ills is a false panacea.

 

[Jonny Sacko]

Grow up ALPA (of which I am not a fan ) could not have stopped it. By the way how do you "loose" money?

Just by your lifestyle. You and Undaunted flyer getting giggy with it. Buying all of those village people costumes, implements, and such. You know.

 

[eaglesview]

Just by your lifestyle. You and Undaunted flyer getting giggy with it. Buying all of those village people costumes, implements, and such. You know.

Still doesn't explain how you "loose" money. Maybe LOSE money!!! And you called me the moron...good for a laugh I guess.

 

[ASA_DFW]

Kit Darby is retired.

 

[Deadalus]

I trust yonited's (mis)management more than I trust the union.
I'd like an inhouse union, but I'd rather have no union than the current one.

I agree ALPA sucks. It could be worse though, you could have USAPA.

 

[Jonny Sacko]

I feel for yea dudes who are getting screwed by the current economic climate, but that in no way reflects on the work of many a good dude at ALPA. They brought a lot to the table, many things that enable us to work in a more safety conscious environment than without them. Leadership is a different animal altogether. Everyone was bitching about "worthless" and before him, it was someone else's turn in the barrel, etc.
Now having been turned down by United 2x, NW, TWA, AW, I feel it was pure luck that got me to a Major cargo carrier that has so far been immune to these wicked downsides we have seen since 9/11.(also those interview experiences helped-thanks guys). Dude if you lost the faith, so be it. I have seen,correction, many of us have seen lots of guys fall by the wayside by this dog eat dog industry. Their WILL be a new generation upcoming to the place of those who leave for good-whether they will be wearing turbans or can speak proper engrish is a different matter. Best of luck to you who decide to hang it up, but blaming ALPA for ALL your ills is a false panacea.

ALPA has done a bunch in our life time, and before, but the ALPA now does not slightly resemble the ALPA of yesterday. That office needs an enema. Everyone there fired or take a 60% cut. Top pay should be 500,000 total. If you want perks, it comes out of that. Throw Prater in jail. If our union was state, he could be hung for treason. We need REAL unionists. Not some idiot that claims to be "full time striker", which lasted a week. Honestly, what? Kill the lawyers that say anything about how WE run the organization or press releases. We need someone not afraid to get on the morning news MONTHLY. Talk about safety because of ALPA and wages of the lowly F/O, that just got screwed BY ALPA, who qualify for food stamps. That's my beef, we need a union absolutely, but ALPA is such a mess, it needs SHUT DOWN, and relight a different candle starting fresh, without Crap like Worthless, or Prater. I mean a strong Unionist. ALPA is a major portion of our ills. All else is a tiny sliver in the total pie chart. Prater doubled that sickness in the first couple of months in office. He's an idiot. ALPA will NEVER get another dime except my dues, until I get an apology, and that idiot is booted.

Congrats on the CAREER, not the job we all have now, thanks in no small part to ALPA!

 

[CaptJax]

Pilots Brace For Downsizing, Career Change

CHICAGO (Reuters) - United Airlines pilot Todd Coomans has yet to fully recover from a painful furlough five years ago that set his airline career back several years and, along the way, also cost him his marriage.
Now the 46-year-old first officer, who returned to United just a year and a half ago, is bracing for another layoff. And this time he thinks the prospects are even worse.
"I can't believe I'm going through it again," said Coomans, who now may look for work in China.
Coomans is convinced he will be among the 950 pilots that United, a unit of UAL Corp (UAUA.O), will eliminate as part of a downsizing effort that the No. 2 U.S. carrier hopes will offset skyrocketing fuel prices.
"This is all I've done my adult life. I love flying," Coomans said. "I don't know if I can do this up and down every few years."
The last time he was furloughed, he found work at an air charter company. But the sudden job loss put such a strain on his marriage that it ended in divorce.
Coomans and his colleagues are not alone. While UAL, which plans to cut up to 1,600 jobs, is the first big airline to detail the impact of cuts on pilots, layoffs are planned at all major carriers as they try to offset record-high fuel prices.
AMR Corp's (AMR.N) American Airlines said in May staff cuts were coming, and said on Wednesday it would shed 900 flight attendants. Continental Airlines Inc (CAL.N) plans to cut 3,000 jobs and US Airways Group Inc (LCC.N) plans 1,700 cuts.
Delta Air Lines Inc (DAL.N), which plans to merge with Northwest Airlines (NWA.N), said earlier this year it would eliminate 2,000 jobs. Northwest also expects job cuts.
Downsizing may be the last hope for airlines to avoid potential devastation as fuel costs threaten to negate the progress they made during years of restructuring.
Fuel costs -- linked to record-high oil prices -- have more than offset a series of fare hikes that led to profits in 2006 and 2007 after five years of losses. The Air Transport Association sees a $10 billion loss for airlines this year.
WHERE TO GO?
Clearly, it's as gloomy a time as anyone who works at a major U.S. airline can remember.
Thousands of workers -- from management down to baggage handlers -- face imminent job cuts and a terrible job market. Many airline employees will have to switch careers.
But some employees, like pilots and flight attendants, are in a particularly tight spot because their careers are so closely connected to seniority at a single airline, which dictates pay, work rules, and routes they are assigned to fly.
A further complication is that seniority does not transfer between airlines. A United pilot who takes a job at American, for example, goes to the bottom of American's seniority list.
If a furloughed pilot wants to keep flying for an airline, the options are limited, especially in the United States.
Some airlines have arrangements with regional partners to give preference to furloughed employees for open positions. Often, however, the pay is much less for a regional pilot, and those jobs also are scarce.
Regional carriers flying 70-seat aircraft, such as Republic Airways Holdings Inc (RJET.O), continue to see some growth.
Airline consultant Robert Mann noted hiring opportunities for pilots in the Middle East and Asia. Many of those jobs, however, are contract positions, meaning the job is not guaranteed once the contract ends.
Some pilots who are in the U.S. National Guard also may consider flying for the military, Mann said.
"So, there are options for those who had the foresight to create options," he said. "I think it's a function of what foresight you've had to create a safety net."
CASTING BLAME
Anger is simmering among pilots about the prospect for unemployment after they and other work groups made steep sacrifices to help save their companies in recent years.
Unlike the last downturn -- triggered in large part by the September 11, 2001, attacks -- this one could have been avoided, said United Capt. Jay Heppner.
He's not buying management arguments that no one could have predicted oil prices would rise to $140 a barrel. Airlines could have been better prepared, he said.
"We're very angry that it's come to this," Heppner said.
Heppner, 54, who believes his job is safe for now, said simply ducking a round of layoffs does not preserve a pilot's lifestyle.
For every large aircraft eliminated from the fleet, pilots who flew that plane lose status that they worked hard to achieve. Senior pilots find themselves flying smaller planes on less-desirable routes or large planes with a lower rank.
"It just cascades," he said. "It ripples throughout the whole airline."
(Editing by Patrick Fitzgibbons and Braden Reddall) 07/02/08 17:58 ET