To the Mesaba pilot jumpseating MEM-GSO last night

[Lear70]

To the Mesaba pilot who was refused the jumpseat last night MEM-GSO while one of our POSITIVE-SPACE Pinnacle pilots took the jumpseat ON COMPANY BUSINESS, I sincerely apologize.

A little background for everyone else, I was on my way to my gate last night when a very irritated Mesaba Captain came up to me and asked if our positive-space pilots were allowed to take the jumpseat. I misunderstood and told him that yes, our pilots COULD positive-space the jumpseat in advance on our own aircraft and he left.

I recognized the Captain at that gate and asked him what was up; he told me he was being positive-spaced to fly the next morning's leg out of GSO and he and the gate agent had conspired for him to take the jumpseat to get another passenger on and deliberately bumped the MSA pilot.

Now I know we are in the business of getting people to their destination, BUT THE JUMPSEAT IS NOT FOR COMPANY USE. In a time when all red-tail pilots are being screwed in one way or another, ESPECIALLY when the company would have offered a passenger a free round-trip ticket PLUS hotel PLUS dinner in order to bump them for a deadheading crew (and several passengers probably would have JUMPED at the opportunity), to do this is simply bad taste, not to mention a questionable violation of jumpseat policy.

To our Pinnacle pilots, I know we don't cover jumpseat etiquette very well, so I'm going to say this just once: the jumpseat is for use by Secret Service, FAA, Company Management, Check Airmen, FAM rides by new-hires, and pilots TRAVELING ON LEISURE TRAVEL ONLY, IN THAT ORDER.

The jumpseat IS NOT for company use travel. If you have a positive-space seat, you take that seat and let another pilot take the jumpseat if they need it. It's professional courtesy AND it's jumpseat POLICY.

In a time when we are being screwed by management, people are losing their seats, losing their jobs, losing their careers, do you REALLY want to send the message that we will screw over OUR OWN fellow pilots?

To Mesaba pilots (and just about everyone else except for G0Jets): you are welcome on my jumpseat ANYTIME and, rest assured, something like this will NEVER happen when I am in command and most of our other pilots feel the same way. PLEASE don't hold one, lone, low-experience Captain against the rest of our pilots.

Thanks,

/rant

 

[Broke in CVG]

BTW: That extra person that was able to get on because the PS took the jumpseat pays your salaray. Don't forget that.

My "now bottom feeding" DCI airline can require us to take the JS while on PS on our own aircraft, but not while PS on Delta or other DCI. One day I was PS somewhere and there was a JS and a full plane. The next standby was the last of 4 girls going home from Spring Break. I talked to the Capt and we both agreed to get that last girl on and I would take the jump. Now I know Delta's JS isn't for my DCI's biz use (even though it's in one pocket and out the other) but we both agreed that the girl was a paying customer and she was going to be separated from her three other friends when trying to get home. Actually, we both agreed she was pretty darn cute and that was the deciding factor and the JS was just going to be SOL. Passengers come first, JS second. We all know it, JS is a privledge NOT A RIGHT!

My point.... don't ever forget who is actually paying your salary. Just because the company treats the people like self loading cargo doesn't mean we should too! I am not in favor of screwing JS at all! But just because you are pissed at the company, don't screw the passenger who BOUGHT HIS TICKET and is about to get screwed by your company.

 

[mrflier]

BTW: That extra person that was able to get on because the PS took the jumpseat pays your salaray. Don't forget that.

I don't think anyone is forgetting that. In fact, I grow tired of how everyone always brings stuff like this up in order to justify why pilots screw each other.

For those who say JS is not a right, but a privledge, you are correct. But take away the ability for a regional FO to live outside a major city and commute to work, well, it just adds another straw to how low we have all sunk.

The fact is, deadheading crews is a cost that some companies do a better job with than others. It's actually classified as a controllable cost. If that means we have to bump (and compensate passengers) from time to time, then that is a cost associated with doing business. The only way this could ever be justified (and maybe not even then) is if there are absolutely no JS waiting for a ride.

I don't know what has happened to our profession? Concepts like don't take the JS when you are PS I always thought were common sense and courtesy -- guess not anymore.

 

[pilot4nwa]

The Mesaba pilot contract and FOM require that a deadheading crew member shall utilize the jumpseat in order to accomodate a revenue passenger. It doesn't say anything about a deadheading crew member bumping a paying passenger in order to accomodate a commuting pilot.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Actually if the plane is full, we can be asked to ride the jumpseat if we are deadheading.

 

[wheelsup]

Just playing devil's advocate, did the PS'ed jumpseater know there was someone requesting the jumpseat? If the flight is oversold and I am PS'ed, I will ask if the jumpseat is open and sit up there instead of bumping a pax if there is not one wanting it.

 

[nethan]

Likewise, if it is a full flight with standbys and I am mustride, I will wait until the very last minute and then take the jumpseat and get the extra rev passenger on board. However, if there already is a jumpseater I will take my must ride seat in the back and let the pax be bumped even if the gate agent is trying to get me to take the jump seat instead. The indoc instructors here do a pretty good job of clarifying how the jump seat works and when it is ok to take it. I guess there was a problem a while ago and the training is now in place to prevent that from happening again.

 

[IFlyFL410]

Actually if the plane is full, we can be asked to ride the jumpseat if we are deadheading.

It's the same here at ASA. If the flight is full, the company may require us to sit on the jumpseat to get an additional paying passenger on, even if someone else has been waiting two hours for the jumpseat. It's in our contract.

 

[Skull1]

Broke in CVG . . who do you work for?

"Actually, we both agreed she was pretty darn cute and that was the deciding factor and the JS was just going to be SOL. "

Broke in CVG

Thank you for pointing out your lack of common sense of deciding what is appropriate when jumpseating. . . . What ever the reasoning is-- company policy or not, jumpseating is not a right but a privalege, or what is commonly appropriate, does anyone here use this justification in allowing someone the jumpseat?

Btw, did you happen to get her number?

 

[Lear70]

Just playing devil's advocate, did the PS'ed jumpseater know there was someone requesting the jumpseat? If the flight is oversold and I am PS'ed, I will ask if the jumpseat is open and sit up there instead of bumping a pax if there is not one wanting it.

OK, dammit, I've about had it with this board. I've retyped my response 3 times and it keeps timing out, then deleting everything I've typed.

I'm going to post each response to each section in 3 different posts. You'd THINK they could get the programming to quit doing that,,, MY message board doesn't do that. Hey Mods, you listening?

To answer your question Wheelsup, yes, the Pos-Spaced jumpseater not only knew but deliberately conspired with the gate agent to do it that way. That's what pissed me off so much.

 

[Lear70]

Actually if the plane is full, we can be asked to ride the jumpseat if we are deadheading.

The gate agent can ASK, but you are in NO WAY required to do it.

FOM section 4, pages 47 - 53 covers jumpseating and NOWHERE in there does it say you have to take a jumpseat to accommodate a passenger.

More specifically, pages 50 and 51 list the jumpseating priority and code 4 says "Deadheading pilots who VOLUNTEER to sit in the flight deck." Note, it's VOLUNTARY for you to do so.

Code 6 is Mesaba and NWA pilots (note they have the same jumpseat priority so it's first-come, first-served), then code 8, OAL pilots.

Additionally, FOM Section 4, page 55 under "Deadheading Crewmembers (Passenger Cabin assigned" specifically states in paragraph 2: "Deadheading Crewmembers will only occupy a seat in the passenger cabin."

I think that's pretty clear and leaves the pilot AND the PIC the leeway to force the gate agent to do what YOU feel is right.

 

[Lear70]

OK, last thread... this is the 2nd time I've typed THIS one too. What the heck is WRONG with the board?

I'm not advocating leaving behind a U.M. or a disabled passenger who will be left in the city with no help. I'm not saying that if someone is heading to the deathbed of a family member / wedding / funeral / barmitzvah (sp?), to leave them behind.

That's what being a PIC is about, making intelligent decisions. But there's NOTHING that says you can't make the gate agent ask for volunteers and get your jumpseater on while complying with the FOM.

Last I checked, the jumpseat was a NEGOTIATED BENEFIT. Anyone heard of FedEx and that pesky tendency for their management to use their jumpseat as a negotiating tool?

In the world we live in of seat loss, job loss, career loss, I'm in NO mood to make someone's life even WORSE by taking away their ability to get home to their family when they're not going to get a free ticket or hotel or dinner.

Does it happen sometimes? Yes, I've missed commutes. But sometimes we have within our hands the tools to make sure that doesn't happen and have a "happy ending" (non-escort service oriented) for everyone.

p.s. Rumor has it with system-wide 98% load factors that the passenger will continue to pay your salary and will be back as long as you are the lowest price in town. Funny how that works.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Broke in CVG-

Sorry to read your post. Lear70 posted with integrity and unity. You reply with "Up yours, I got mine!"

Will you tell us? Are you a commuter?

In this current environement, guys like you will continue to give and give. Management will never need to learn efficient scheduling practices when guys are willing to be the buffer zone for thier inadequency. Management runs airlines not airline pilots. If the situation you describe was so important, then the company would manage it themselves instead of "counting" on guys like you to self initiate "Johnny on the spot" revenue preservation!

Consider the safety/rest implications of sitting in the jumpseat. Jumpseats aren't the most comfortable. Besides, when I show up to work, I am ready to fly not ride, but if the company wants me to ride it might as well be in the cabin.

Despite Lear70's freshmen posting skills... (one would think after over 1000 post he'd get it right.... He even claims to be his own mod. at another board...:beer: ) he has clearly stated that jumpseating is a negotiated benefit paid for with a pilots group bargaining capital!

All pilot groups should secure personal jumpseating as a negotiated right in their CBA's for thier own pilot group and off line pilots. Now it is no longer a privilege. Otherwise, you'll learn first hand the Peanut Butter Jar Principle of Management. Do a google search or ask for a PM!

One a seprae but related note, here is the number one rule in jumpseating- Only a jumpseater can ask himself to jumpseat and no one else! This means the company cannot use the jumpseat to position crews. Especially off line.

If we allow the company to position us on our own jets with the jumpseat, we'll be doing transcon and transoceanic, soon crewrest on a widebody will be on the jumpseat! Hold the line and don't let the camel get its nose under the tent.

Finally, sorry to read you used the wrong head. Choosing a sorority sister on personal standby travel from spring break over your fellow pilots? I can understand if a pax was going to a wedding or funeral...but really...are you that weak?

Just because the company treats passengers like self loading cargo doesn't mean you treat your fellow pilots like second class citizens...

Always remember! When it comes to the jumpseat, no one gets left behind!

 

[Traumahawk]

For those who say JS is not a right, but a privledge, you are correct. But take away the ability for a regional FO to live outside a major city and commute to work, well, it just adds another straw to how low we have all sunk.

The fact is, deadheading crews is a cost that some companies do a better job with than others. It's actually classified as a controllable cost. If that means we have to bump (and compensate passengers) from time to time, then that is a cost associated with doing business. The only way this could ever be justified (and maybe not even then) is if there are absolutely no JS waiting for a ride.

I don't know what has happened to our profession? Concepts like don't take the JS when you are PS I always thought were common sense and courtesy -- guess not anymore.

Agreed Agreed Agreed!!

Gate agents don't like it? Have them write HQ and tell them to please stop overselling flights by 500%

Take care of one another. Noone else will. Not even the cute 17 year old that took the last seat(who probably laughed with her friends about what a HUGE dork you are.)

Friggin' sellouts.

T-Hawk

 

[mrflier]

Consider the safety/rest implications of sitting in the jumpseat. Jumpseats aren't the most comfortable. Besides, when I show up to work, I am ready to fly not ride, but if the company wants me to ride it might as well be in the cabin.

This is the most valid point yet! I think some people sometimes forget, if you are sitting in a cockpit jumpseat, you are an additional crewmember. You will have to stay vigilant and alert throughout the flight no matter how long it lasts. At least on a deadhead, you can try to sleep, recline, etc.

 

[spacecadet1]

Without drawing attention to any specific poster, it is a sad day when we screw over our fellow pilots or employees for that matter. But this is a fairly typical example of where this industry has gone. I love flying with Captains who lack the necessary spine to ensure that the plane doesn't leave with an empty seat with non-revs standing at the gate (as I prod them to ask the agent about any non-revs). Sometimes I think we get what we deserve.

 

[EDUC8-or]

I had to get to base tonight and the two flights I was trying to get on were both overbooked. When I showed up at the gate there was someone waiting there for the JS. I called last night to reserve the JS, but company policy is first at the gate from our company gets the seat up front. The gate agent wouldn't let him list when he got there about an hour before me and we had a chat and I just dealt with it. There was one more flight to base later in the night and I ventured down to that gate to sign up for the JS for the flight at the end of the night.

At PSA they will ask us to take a seat up front if we're space positive to get a paying PAX on board. If there is another pilot from another USAirways carrier who wants it and I'm space positive I'll just say no and take my seat in back. My fellow commuters know what it's like to miss a flight to work, or even worse, a flight home.

 

[rptrain]

My "now bottom feeding" DCI airline can require us to take the JS while on PS on our own aircraft, but not while PS on Delta or other DCI. One day I was PS somewhere and there was a JS and a full plane. The next standby was the last of 4 girls going home from Spring Break. I talked to the Capt and we both agreed to get that last girl on and I would take the jump. Now I know Delta's JS isn't for my DCI's biz use (even though it's in one pocket and out the other) but we both agreed that the girl was a paying customer and she was going to be separated from her three other friends when trying to get home. Actually, we both agreed she was pretty darn cute and that was the deciding factor and the JS was just going to be SOL. Passengers come first, JS second. We all know it, JS is a privledge NOT A RIGHT!

i hate to break it to you, but you may have committed jumpseat fraud. you absolutely, positively cannot use a jumpseat other than your own airline's for company use, no matter what the motive. now, if you work for a wholly owned subsidiary, it might make sense to make an exception. but unless it's in writing, never ever ride the jumpseat in another company's airplane when on positive space. by the way, how much do you think that cute standyby passenger was paying versus what your company might have paid for the cabin seat?

 

[PCL_128]

Actually if the plane is full, we can be asked to ride the jumpseat if we are deadheading.

Guys, we need to get this stuff straight. Don't bump fellow pilots from the JS for company business under any circumstances.

From the brand new "Pinnacle Airlines Jumpseat Policies and Procedures" printed by the PCL MEC and Jumpseat Committee: (bold emphasis is mine)

A deadheading certificated airman is not required to ride on the cockpit jumpseat if no seats are available in the passenger compartment, or weight and balance requires him to occupy the seat. The only "must rides" are included in Class 1 of the priority list. The FAA has ruled that a deadheading crewmember is not considered a "must ride" and, therefore, should not be treated as such. Any Captain who refuses a deadheading crewmember from the flight deck jumpseat has the unfettered authority to deny such access, and there will be no action from management to punish such decision.
​

 

[mckpickle]

WOW what a bunch of horseshat. At XJT we got it in our contract that management/gate agents etc can NEVER require that we ride the JS. That JS is specifically for 1. FAA, 2 company Check Airman performing line checks etc, 3 our own pilots commuting. Anything less is BS.