Timeline for all this ASA/Skywest ALPA stuff?

[ASApuppy]

I was curious as to when all this stuff is going to happen.

When are ALPA cards counted for the Skywest pilots?

Assuming they collect enough cards, when will a union vote occur?

When is the election for a new ASA MEC?

 

[SSDD]

If ASA is counting on Skywest to help with their problems, they better go to plan B. I don't think there is enough support for it to get to a vote. There are some strong areas of support, but overall, not enough to bring ALPA in.

 

[rightseatjocky]

Go ahead and fly the 90 for seat pay. Oh, why doesn't JA go ahead and give you a raise to keep ALPA off skywest property. Little puppets they are.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

If ASA is counting on Skywest to help with their problems, they better go to plan B. I don't think there is enough support for it to get to a vote. There are some strong areas of support, but overall, not enough to bring ALPA in.

I agree. ASA is on their own.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I agree. ASA is on their own.

Well, if ASA is on their own, why would they not race for the bottom and try to cut SkyWest out of some aircraft transfers?

You think that the ASA pilots will stand tough for industry leading if you vote based your enjoyment of the fruit of the ASA aircraft transfers?

The SkyWest vote does not happen in a vacuum. You can not assume that ASA pilots will have the resolve to hand over their jobs to you simply because standing up and trying to improve the profession is the right thing to do. The ASA pilots need your help. If you ignore their plight, you might as well prepare for your own concessionary bargaining because ASA is already less expensive on the majority of the fleet and if forced to negotiate in "survival mode" you can bet the ASA pilots' will come in cheaper than SkyWest....

Think about where this is going.... A year ago ASA was happy that we had been bought by SkyWest, were getting our 18 (or 21) pre purchase firm orders, plus the first 900's. Our training department was told to ramp up for rapid growth. We serve as an example that things can change very quickly.

We both need the stability that would allow us to build a professional career.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Fins,

I am an ASA pilot. My comment was based on the fact that I don't think we can count on SKW joining ALPA to help stop this whipsaw. Without ALPA or any union for that matter to stand up to management, we at ASA won't be able to look for help from the SKW pilot group.

Hence the comment, we are on our own.

 

[~~~^~~~]

OK - thanks. But let us hope the SkyWest pilots realize that unity benefits them. Comair sailed us down the river twice in the old ALPA "partnership" - did not seem to work out for them. Seems like pilots would learn that we are all in this together.

 

[Newpilot2b]

Fins,
One big difference here. We at SkyWest are at will employees, meaning, If you guys hold the bar up on Pay, Great! If you don't, Great!
What I mean is no ill will to you at ASA but that if we grow because of your loss it is not because of us Pilots at SkyWest. We don't make or influence these decisions at all. We can't we have no Union. Mangmt. makes all the decions not us.
If we get a paycut because of your growth, it does matter to us because you have a Union and do have voting rights. So in a direct way you could hurt us in the Pocketbokk, upgrade, etc. Directly. In the end Mangmt will do what they want though.
Let me explain it another way.
If things go great for us at SkyWest then we can only blame JA and mangmet.
If things go bad at SkyWest then we can only blame JA and Mangmnt. If.....and I mean if we vote in ALPA then there will be two ALPA groups and at that point Mangmt no longer can strong arm you at ASA. There really can be no Whipsaw action by Mangmt because we (SkyWest Pilots)can not fight back. If only one can fight at a boxing match, there can't be much fighting or in this case whipsawing going on can there. It is pretty much one sided Whipsawing from your end. Sorry but again we have no say when it comes down to it just JA and Mangmt.
I can tell you right now 99% of us at SkyWest do not want to merge into one group. You at ASA have the upper hand on Hire date. As you can tell or maybe not, but at SkyWest Pay is not everything for us here. Quality of Life has allot to do with it also. If we were to combine into one group we at SkyWest would lose that quality of life. Which means you now can upgrade faster, etc.
In the end what would we get out of Being ALPA if a mrege would happen?
I ask this as a sincere question. YOu can't promise me that I would be able to bid my lines at the seniority, Fly the trips I want.....
We at SkyWest could and would loose out.
Right now we are happy at where we are now. Could things be better...sure. Be worse.....sure. But many of us look and guess the future, and right now, we think ALPA could be better for us as a SkyWest Pilot group but it could be alot worse then it is now and most of us do not wan to gamble. The Pro's don't out weigh the Cons. They just don't to many what if's that either you nor I can promsie wont happen.
We are Stuck between a rock and a hard place at SkyWest. Right now we are picking the hardplace. Nethier one of us is going to come out both happy in the end.
Why should I compromise with you id I don't have to?
I am afraid it is you vs us and I hate to say it....I am selfish I am going to worry about me first and you Fins, Second.
If you say other wise I would say you are a lier to but it bluntly. "Brotherhood" would be nice and all but come on this is not a perfect world. If I could trust you and you trust me then maybe we might have a future together as one,(didn't mean to sound gay there, you know what I mean) But I don't. I don't even know your name. How can I vote in ALPA or say to JA that we are together when we didn't even make an attept to have a Company Pic-nic, BBQ, Softball game this past summer when you ASA guys were in SLC??? Granted we didn't extend the olive branch either but I think we both blew it. I blame my SAPA and I blame your ALPA. These are just my thoughts and not from the Pilot group but I think some points are from each and everyone of us.
Fire away I just wanted to be open and honest to you so maybe you could understand what we are thinking on the other side of the fence?

 

[USCtrojan]

Fins,
One big difference here. We at SkyWest are at will employees, meaning, If you guys hold the bar up on Pay, Great! If you don't, Great!
What I mean is no ill will to you at ASA but that if we grow because of your loss it is not because of us Pilots at SkyWest. We don't make or influence these decisions at all. We can't we have no Union. Mangmt. makes all the decions not us.
If we get a paycut because of your growth, it does matter to us because you have a Union and do have voting rights. So in a direct way you could hurt us in the Pocketbokk, upgrade, etc. Directly. In the end Mangmt will do what they want though.
Let me explain it another way.
If things go great for us at SkyWest then we can only blame JA and mangmet.
If things go bad at SkyWest then we can only blame JA and Mangmnt. If.....and I mean if we vote in ALPA then there will be two ALPA groups and at that point Mangmt no longer can strong arm you at ASA. There really can be no Whipsaw action by Mangmt because we (SkyWest Pilots)can not fight back. If only one can fight at a boxing match, there can't be much fighting or in this case whipsawing going on can there. It is pretty much one sided Whipsawing from your end. Sorry but again we have no say when it comes down to it just JA and Mangmt.
I can tell you right now 99% of us at SkyWest do not want to merge into one group. You at ASA have the upper hand on Hire date. As you can tell or maybe not, but at SkyWest Pay is not everything for us here. Quality of Life has allot to do with it also. If we were to combine into one group we at SkyWest would lose that quality of life. Which means you now can upgrade faster, etc.
In the end what would we get out of Being ALPA if a mrege would happen?
I ask this as a sincere question. YOu can't promise me that I would be able to bid my lines at the seniority, Fly the trips I want.....
We at SkyWest could and would loose out.
Right now we are happy at where we are now. Could things be better...sure. Be worse.....sure. But many of us look and guess the future, and right now, we think ALPA could be better for us as a SkyWest Pilot group but it could be alot worse then it is now and most of us do not wan to gamble. The Pro's don't out weigh the Cons. They just don't to many what if's that either you nor I can promsie wont happen.
We are Stuck between a rock and a hard place at SkyWest. Right now we are picking the hardplace. Nethier one of us is going to come out both happy in the end.
Why should I compromise with you id I don't have to?
I am afraid it is you vs us and I hate to say it....I am selfish I am going to worry about me first and you Fins, Second.
If you say other wise I would say you are a lier to but it bluntly. "Brotherhood" would be nice and all but come on this is not a perfect world. If I could trust you and you trust me then maybe we might have a future together as one,(didn't mean to sound gay there, you know what I mean) But I don't. I don't even know your name. How can I vote in ALPA or say to JA that we are together when we didn't even make an attept to have a Company Pic-nic, BBQ, Softball game this past summer when you ASA guys were in SLC??? Granted we didn't extend the olive branch either but I think we both blew it. I blame my SAPA and I blame your ALPA. These are just my thoughts and not from the Pilot group but I think some points are from each and everyone of us.
Fire away I just wanted to be open and honest to you so maybe you could understand what we are thinking on the other side of the fence?

You do have a choice. Stand in the unity. If you fly struck work, do you think any ALPA carrier is going to say, "Hey, you guys are at will employees, therefore you're not to blame...." Sorry, sir, that won't fly. Right now we are battling for you and for us. It's very frustrating you can't understand this. I almost want to take a 50% paycut to show you what the F$# would happen next. You're new, I understand that. You need to get an understanding of how this dynamic is playing out. Right now your mentality is living up to history.....Repeating itself. Thank you Fins for coming back. Thank you Fins for stating the obvious and making it clear. Many of the Skywest pilots I've talked to support ASA, most of those pilots are senior and understand what is taking place. United we stand.....

Trojan

 

[ASApuppy]

First off, there are already 5 something threads going about all this stuff. I just want to know the friggen timeline!!!!!

Now to respond to the above stuff. If I were at Skywest and had ASA not been purchased I would not be voting in ALPA. But, to me, the dynamics are completely different in the whipsaw.

Totally agree with you on the seniority and QOL stuff. Some things to keep in mind is you guys have lower paying upgrades, the Brasilia. Most of us at ASA check that one off to "Been there, done that". You also have earned a lot of new growth recently. Congrats. If there were a merger of lists, I would think that fences, either domicile or codeshare, or something would be placed that would protect the right of the existing pilots to upgrade or preserve their respective QOL. I really don't care if Skywest has 500 capt jr to me as long as new growth is an equal shot. After several years the fences come down. Nobody loses much. I don't feel its fair to say that somebody hired at Skywest is entitled to an upgrade in 18 months because that is what it is now. Upgrades were a little over a year when I was hired 6 years ago, and I'm still waiting for that year to pass by.

Point is, if seniority integration is your only sticking point, believe me that is pretty minor. For most, this job is a means to an end. For those who plan to make it a career, does it really make a difference in the big picture? It all becomes noise when we hire a thousand more, doesn't it?

I have a dream that one day I'll be able to go to work and think about how to make things better for the passenger, rather than protecting my backside from management.

 

[John Pennekamp]

I was curious as to when all this stuff is going to happen.

When are ALPA cards counted for the Skywest pilots?

Assuming they collect enough cards, when will a union vote occur?

When is the election for a new ASA MEC?

1. Cards to be sent this month

2. Vote to come after cards come back, are counted, and ALPA decides to petition the NMB for a vote (several months)

3. Nominations this month, elections next month, officers take office in March.

 

[FishandFly]

Reading these posts brings up an interesting opportunity. We know that Atkins and SKYW holdings has no real emotional attachment to the SKYW pilot group. They screwed them on the whole airplane payscale deal...

So if the SKYW pilots do as they suggest on this forum and refuse to unite because they are offered another nickel from SKYW holdings to keep ALPA out, what if we at ASA began to directly attack the skywest pilot group?

From the opinions I've read I gather that the majority of the SKYW pilots are so self involved that they only care about being Dad's favorite child. I say we take a hint and stick them back by undercutting them.

Within months Dad will have us opening up bases all over the country and we'll have a 2 year upgrade.

The only thing we have to prepare for is that the SKYW pilots are no where near the lowest pay that they'll take. We must plan on major pay cuts in order to out wit our jack(*# bretheren.

***

Sorry guys, the "it's all about ME" attitude of all the skyw posts is getting to me. I'm back to normal now.

 

[:-)]

A quick note to those at Skywest: You will have a better chance at stopping a whipsaw if you are both unionized carriers. It's that simple. My day job is at a larger carrier, so I'm not totally up to date on your problems, but you really do need to consider that management goodwill is not a guarantee; and that there IS safety in numbers.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I am afraid it is you vs us and I hate to say it....I am selfish I am going to worry about me first and you Fins, Second.
If you say other wise I would say you are a lier to but it bluntly.

Both ASA and Comair were offered growth for concessions from late 2002 to 2004. Comair and ASA's MEC had a gentlemen's agreement to support each other. That agreement maintained Comair's pay rate until they voted concessions for growth while sending us "we support you" stickers.

ASA's track record for not lying, even in the face of those who broke our trust, is something I am proud of. We did not participate in the race for the bottom.

You feel you can do better by capitalizing on our misfortune. That is unfortunate, we could do better together.

 

[jstyle13]

You feel you can do better by capitalizing on our misfortune. That is unfortunate, we could do better together.

Boy that's the truth! I want a new and improved contract not just for me but for all other regional pilots. I don't want to look back 10 years later and regret that the ASA pilot group folded and settled for something far short of what we should have gotten. To get that I'm willing to go on strike or play the game of chicken till the bitter end. I think it's great that the Skywest guys have a good arangment between them and the mgm't group over there. Great that you guys are making a lot of money. I hope you do vote in ALPA, not becuase ALPA is some cureall for more pay and better QOL, but becuase with both groups on the same page, represented by the same organization, that would give us a ton of power! I think that scares the suits on both side a lot.

 

[737 Pylt]

I knew you couldn't stay away!

OK - thanks. But let us hope the SkyWest pilots realize that unity benefits them. Comair sailed us down the river twice in the old ALPA "partnership" - did not seem to work out for them. Seems like pilots would learn that we are all in this together.

Fins:
I would expect nothing less from lawson and the cmr mec! If you set your standards low while dealing with the cmr group, you won't be as dissapointed!
Just a thought!
737

 

[CFIT]

What many of you don't realize is even if SkyWest voted in ALPA today it would be years, at least 4, before a contract was ratified. During that time the cost bias would be to SkyWest. The only thing that can change things is if ASA were to accept a "friking monster huge" consessionary contract. That obviously isn't going to ever happen. What fate brings to our group and ASA remains to be seen but from what I've put together it's already done. That is pretty much how JA sees things and will deal with SkyWest pilots way down the road if in fact ALPA were voted in.

Skywest voting in ALPA now isn't going to help ASA.
Sad to say, except for Fish, you guys are going to have to fix this for your selves. FUF&F

 

[Speedtape]

Skywest voting in ALPA now isn't going to help ASA.
Sad to say, except for Fish, you guys are going to have to fix this for your selves. FUF&F

Skywest voting in ALPA would benefit both Skywest and ASA. Think longterm! What happened to those negotiations for a rate on the 70 that you were promised about 2 years ago? Make yourself sheep, and you will be devoured by the wolves! You are at will employees only if you choose to stay that way! Have you not received letters in the last year from Brad stating that the competitive landscape was changing and that MGMT hoped that they could maintain your present pay and benefits but that would depend on outside conditions? They are softening you up for something down the road.

Continental Express just got a 2 year contract extension with some nice pay bumps that put their 50 seat rates near or maybe above the 70 rate at ASA. For all you ALPA bashers, take note!

Your pay rates and ours will never change until we start pulling on the same end of the rope! There is strength in numbers. Even if kept apart, we could work together to improve working conditions and pay if you had ALPA. Otherwise, we will be whipsawed and that will keep downward pressure on pay and benefits.

 

[John Pennekamp]

What many of you don't realize is even if SkyWest voted in ALPA today it would be years, at least 4, before a contract was ratified. During that time the cost bias would be to SkyWest. The only thing that can change things is if ASA were to accept a "friking monster huge" consessionary contract. That obviously isn't going to ever happen. What fate brings to our group and ASA remains to be seen but from what I've put together it's already done. That is pretty much how JA sees things and will deal with SkyWest pilots way down the road if in fact ALPA were voted in.

Skywest voting in ALPA now isn't going to help ASA.
Sad to say, except for Fish, you guys are going to have to fix this for your selves. FUF&F

I agree. If the skywest pilots keep whining about how much ALPA sucks, how lazy and egotistical the ASA pilots are, and how we should be stapled, then maybe we should just shoot for 10% under their rates and take THEIR -700s and -900s.

 

[CFIT]

Skywest voting in ALPA would benefit both Skywest and ASA. Think longterm!


It will take years to put together a contract and todays Comair is tomorrows ASA.



What happened to those negotiations for a rate on the 70 that you were promised about 2 years ago? Make yourself sheep, and you will be devoured by the wolves! You are at will employees only if you choose to stay that way!


Ya, I see guys getting terminated left and right, that's why we're in such a hiring frenzy.



Have you not received letters in the last year from Brad stating that the competitive landscape was changing and that MGMT hoped that they could maintain your present pay and benefits but that would depend on outside conditions? They are softening you up for something down the road.



If that was to be the case then why is Brad talking increased pay proposals even if it is just talk? I don't think the tone would be increase if he was trying to "soften" us up for a reduction.



Continental Express just got a 2 year contract extension with some nice pay bumps that put their 50 seat rates near or maybe above the 70 rate at ASA. For all you ALPA bashers, take note!


What are they going to fly after they loose all of their aircraft?




Your pay rates and ours will never change until we start pulling on the same end of the rope! There is strength in numbers. Even if kept apart, we could work together to improve working conditions and pay if you had ALPA. Otherwise, we will be whipsawed and that will keep downward pressure on pay and benefits.


I think a year from now there will not be 2 equal groups to work together. And as I've said before, even if we voted in ALPA today it would be years before we could be in a position to collaborate an advantage. The economic dynamics are so rapid today there is no way contract negotiations can keep up, and I believe that is by design.

I saw an old Wang computer on Ebay, and had to laugh. What was at one time a powerful industry tool is now a relic and basically useless.

I see ALPA the same way.