Time to say NO MORE

[DHPFLYN]

GO TEAMSTERS atleast they have balls and stick together. Was with them in 97' ups strike. Stood together and got what we wanted.

 

[AA717driver]

GO TEAMSTERS atleast they have balls and stick together. Was with them in 97' ups strike. Stood together and got what we wanted.

Yeah, they did a bang up job for NetJets... Sorry, I don't want some mafia-owned truck driver heading up my union. A weak-d1ck, non-flying pilot from a "have" airline certainly didn't do my airline career any good. (ALPA did WONDERS for my non-union, Pt. 91 corporate career, however...)

Until we have pilots earnestly working for pilots--not just trying to avoid flying the line without having to go into management to do it, we will continue to wallow in fear and self-pity at our ever-decreasing pay and working conditions.TC

 

[SirFlyALot]

Bingo. When times are good, the threat of a strike will work. Look at the DL pilots back in 2001. Times were good (or at least it appeared that way) and Mullin was afraid of a strike. So he caved to the pilots and gave them huge raises that DL could not afford.

But now times are different. If the DL pilots go on strike now, a quick liquidation of DL would occur. So unless your are willing to throw your seniority away (which most guys with any real seniority won't do), a strike isn't going to happen.

I couldn't agree anymore. It is time to say NO MORE!

The line of thought layed out here by MedFlyer is the kind of thinking that will lead to further erosion and destruction of our profession. It is the line of thought currently embraced by ALPA. It is wrong.

We, as pilots, need to make changes. One definition of insanity is
repeating the same behavior and expecting different results. If we, as pilots, continue to do what we've been doing with respect to how we organize ourselves and how we negotiate, we can expect more of the same. We need to make changes; not little changes but big, revolutionary changes. We, as pilots, operate today under essentially the same system that we operated under during the era of regulation. Times have changed. We must change. We must write a new playbook.

To begin with, we as pilots must come together to form a national pilot's union with universal seniority (gasp!). Yes, of course, a system like this would have drawbacks. However, the system we currently operate under has more of them. What has the current system done for you lately? What will it do for you when your airline gets into trouble?

Our system of tying seniority to a single company plays right exactly into the hands of management. It causes us to have to completely start over if, for any reason, we want to or are forced to switch employers. It severely limits our options and makes us the biggest stakeholders in our given companies; bigger stakeholders than even management. It forces us to lash our fortunes and those of our family to the fate of a single company. Is this smart? Does management do this? No! Of course not. If the company goes under, then management can go on to a similar-paying job at the next company. Can we? No. We do this to ourselves and it absolutely works against us in today's environment. Maybe it worked during regulation. But we aren't regulated anymore and it doesn't work anymore. It gives management the upper hand.

A universal seniority system wouldn't necesarily have to be designed so that junior guys are continuously held down on the list. It could be designed in any number of ways. The point is that universal seniority would give back to pilots true leverage and would give all of us options. That's something we haven't had for a very long time. Management would immediately be stripped of a tremendous amount of power over us.

To make a system like this work would require a single pilot's union on a national scale. This would require pilots to come together like never before. Would this be hard to do? Of course. Won't it be harder, though, to watch your paycheck continue to shrink, your medical insurance premiums continue to skyrocket, and your work rules continue to evaporate? All good things require hard work and sacrifice. This will be no different.

I envision something akin to the West coast longshoreman's union or the NFL player's union. If the longshoremen go on strike, everyone goes on strike, and everything grinds to a halt. That is real power. The NFL player's union sets a league minimum payscale. We should do the same. We need to tell management at all of the airlines, "If you want pilots, you come to our union, and you pay them atleast our minimum payscale and you give them at least these minimum benefits." If you don't comply then you don't get pilots. Of course, to be effective, this would require being able to implement real and potent sanctions against the inevitable corps of scabs that management would attempt to recruit.

The naysayers out there will say this is all a pipe dream, or they don't want to give up seniority, or this won't work, or that won't work. Well, you know what? Our system right now is broken and it's not doing you or me or our families any favors. At what point will you think changes need to be made? How bad will it need to get for you to want to take action? You people who are afraid to change and are unwilling to alter course are as much of a threat to our once great profession as the soulless management ghouls who seek to disembowel us.

 

[flyby]

Help Wanted

HELP WANTED

Leadership Specialist

- Represent and unify 10's of thousands of Airline Pilots
- Preserve the Piloting profession
- Requires the ability to see "The Big picture"
- CPR Certification a PLUS!!!

Send resume to: ALPA

 

[Ty Webb]

I couldn't agree anymore. It is time to say NO MORE!

To begin with, we as pilots must come together to form a national pilot's union with universal seniority (gasp!). Yes, of course, a system like this would have drawbacks. However, the system we currently operate under has more of them. What has the current system done for you lately? What will it do for you when your airline gets into trouble?
. . . . . We need to tell management at all of the airlines, "If you want pilots, you come to our union, and you pay them atleast our minimum payscale and you give them at least these minimum benefits." If you don't comply then you don't get pilots.

Welcome to the party. I have been saying that on this board for three years now . . . once pilot costss become "fixed costs", airline management will actually have to find real, meaningful ways to manage the airline, including raising prices and cutting capacity.

Maybe now that pilots of Delta, Northwest, United TWAAmerican, and USAirways are now all feeling the pain of it at the same time, maybe now things can get done.

 

[Nindiri]

Airlines would simply go outside of a national union to hire.

 

[B-atch]

SirFlyalot, this is the kind of idea that needs to flourish if we are to survive as a profession...Unfortunately, pilots are short sighted , self centered, and self serving.. It would be difficult, even in these trying times, to convince the ENTIRE pilot group to think collectively. I for one, give you my vote on this. I hope that some day we can all agree on what is good for the profession.

 

[SirFlyALot]

Airlines would simply go outside of a national union to hire.

Nindiri, okay, you're right. We're done for. Let's sit on our hands. Or, more accurately, let's pull down our pants and bend over some more. There's no hope. There's no way to defeat that possibility.

I'm sorry to say this, but your reasoning is the kind of reasoning that has emasculated pilots as a group. Your reasoning paints you and all of us as stooges and patsies to management. It is exactly what management wants us to think. It's exactly the kind of thinking that will see pilots become nothing more than blue collar vocational workers. Welcome to your brave new world handed to all of us courtesy of weak-minded people like you. I hope you like it.

However, your argument does raise a valid concern. I addressed this in my original post. We, as a group, must research and develop valid ways to combat the real threat posed by scabs. Other unions have confronted the same problem and overcome it. There is no reason in the world why we can't.

 

[Nindiri]

You read a lot in that one sentence, eh?

My thinking is reality. You can deny facts all you want, but it isn't going to change them. How do you plan to force all pilots to join the national union? What if a group of pilots chooses to sign their own independent contract with an airline?

 

[furloughed dude]

Gotta love these guys that want someone else to stand up. When it comes to their job, they see otherwise....

 

[Corona]

Like the acronym of my screen name points out.... You Guys Are So Fukced!

Nice mirrored shades, dude. Do they work with the ladies?

C

 

[IB6 UB9]

Nindiri has it right, morbid as it sounds. How do you expect pilots to band together on a national level when they can't even do it at their own company. Example...Delta guys (Ithinkit'scalled) greenslipping while guys are furloughed, NWA folks picking up (Ithinkit'scalled) hightime. Chalk it up as another great idea that will never work because there is no unity, none at an ALPA carrier or anywhere else.

 

[B-atch]

Time to go OVERSEAS!! Asia's market is about to explode.....And not enough pilots to meet the demand......Perhaps what this country needs is a REAL pilot shortage....

 

[pilotyip]

There is already a shortage of qualified pilots in the US. All the airlines that are hiring are redefining their competitive minimums to fill their classes. Pinnacle just prior the NWA meltdown was offering a $1,000 signing bonus. Guys with the flight time are being hired as Captain or making it in one year. All of pilots leaving had no problems finding jobs. That is a shortage.

 

[jbDC9]

There is already a shortage of qualified pilots in the US. All the airlines that are hiring are redefining their competitive minimums to fill their classes. Pinnacle just prior the NWA meltdown was offering a $1,000 signing bonus. Guys with the flight time are being hired as Captain or making it in one year. All of pilots leaving had no problems finding jobs. That is a shortage.

Umm, I don't think so... did you forget about all the furloughees on the street? They're out there by the thousands; methinks the reason they're not all applying to the regionals that are hiring and growing (and taking over mainline flying) is that they don't want to start over at the bottom rung of a regional making crap pay. Perhaps they've found better pay working as a car salesman or at Home Depot... I really don't think there's a pilot shortage here.