Time for ALPA to split?

[Eagle-ista]

Originally posted by scopeCMRandASA
"A couple of misstatements from you. Mainline pilots do NOT bestow a seniority number. Management does via the hiring process."


I must correct you.

At least at AMR, this is not the case. 6+ years ago when the "Flow-through" agreement was signed, one of the offers made was to give Eagle pilots AA seniority numbers. APA refused.

During the current frakus, once again the Eagle MEC approached the APA with a proposal to end the grievances and settle. One of the proposals included senioity numbers for Eagle pilots. APA refused

AMR long ago said that APA controlled the AA seniority list. Even to their own detriment, they have refused to include Eagle pilots on the AA list.

Also, there was a "RAPA". It was the Wings West pilot's union when there were 4 separate carriers at American Eagle. It was a great contract.

 

[FlyComAirJets]

Eagle-ista, that scope... clown is downright delusional in nearly every misstatement he spews. I pray that he isn't a Comair or, God forbid, an ASA pilot. How would you like someone of his ilk on your team? When push comes to shove, as it does in every heated contract negotiations, he will be the first to cave in. Later, he'll blame his lack of conviction on the RJDC, sunspots, or anything else. Boot licking to get a mainline job, yeah, that'll work.

Delta pilots just love to point to the fact we were offered some sort of flow through during the late nineties, the particulars of which never seemed to be put down on paper. It was a sham that was all too transparent. They might sell out their junior pilots (their furloughees come to mind), but we haven't. The lessons learned from the 16 year Eagle contract were not lost to us.

Sure, try and lecture an Eagle pilot about inter-MEC communications. What you will get is a chronology of APA rebuffs and subterfuge. I hope you guys go right on bootin' mailine backside.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Also, there was a "RAPA". It was the Wings West pilot's union...

Well, then maybe we could call it the Federation of Underpaid Cockpit Employee Resources, or FUCER.

 

[chawbein]

If the major airlines went ahead with the "one list" scenario, would it mean that the college degree requirement to fly for the major airlines goes the way of the dodo? Would it mean that now regional pilots would have to have a college degree? If the second were true, would there be a "grandfather clause" or would all regional pilots be required to go out and get a degree? I'm just curious.

My point is that with one list, either Delta has to change their hiring criteria to fit Delta Express (I don't want to type all the names) or would Delta Express have to change their hiring criteria to meet Delta? My bet goes on the second option.

What are the thoughts on that?

 

[Typhoon1244]

Would it mean that now regional pilots would have to have a college degree?

You mean they don't? Hell, I wasted four years!

 

[chawbein]

From Comair's Website
High School Graduate, College Degree Preferred

From Delta Connection's Website
College Degree
For those pursuing a college degree, Delta Connection Academy has joined forces with Broward Community College, Bridgewater State College and Jacksonville University to offer two-year associate's degrees and a four-year bachelor's degree in aviation.

Sure doesn't look like Comair/ASA/Skywest/whatever requires a degree to work for them. Alot of the dudes coming out of the zero to hero programs don't have a degree, just look at the fierce debate on this board about the validity of one.

Just to clarify, does the "one list" mean that you have to be hired by mainline airlines (before you can move up) or does it mean that you are automatically able to upgrade to a larger jet as if you were origionally hired at mainline? Are you getting the jist of what I'm saying, I'm not sure if I'm getting my question right.

 

[100LL... Again!]

-------------------------------------------------------------
Don't take this personally, but most major ALPA members don't care what happens to your regional career. If you want to advance your career, apply to the majors. Otherwise get your own frickin union and stop sucking off of ours. The RJ growth will stop at some point, whether there will be any major airline jobs to go to is questionable, but no matter what, the profession will be much worse off.
-------------------------------------------------------------


If I ever had any doubts about why the RJDC is in existence, this post has blotted them out. This is probably not the effect you intended, but it is the tone COMBINED with the content that finishes off my decision. Thanks for the clarity.

I'll bet this is the opinion of more than one mainline pilot. You come right out and say it yourself.

You sir, are an elitist of the first order.

Elitists eventually have their palaces leveled by the peasants.

I'm done taking one for the team. I now see how the team views me. Screw you and your career aspirations. I'm going to start working on mine.

I give the profession ten years, MAX.



Typhoon - Now if we only agree on religion...

 

[Typhoon1244]

If I ever had any doubts about why the RJDC is in existence, this post has blotted them out.

I know you're not going to believe this, but I agree with 100LL.

(I'm still not quite ready to send money to the RJDC, though...)

 

[N2264J]

I know you're not going to believe this, but I agree with 100LL.

(I'm still not quite ready to send money to the RJDC, though...)

Well, here's something for you to consider:

The Judge's decision this summer not only allowed the case to go forward but while he was at it, he shot all of ALPA's arguments on DFR full of holes.

 

[FDJ2]

Re: Re: Time for ALPA to split?

Well, here's something for you to consider:

The Judge's decision this summer not only allowed the case to go forward but while he was at it, he shot all of ALPA's arguments full of holes.

Let me see, 9 out of 10 of the RJDC's claims were thrown out on the first motion to dismiss. Five of them, the ones with all the monetary damages, because the judge found out that they were complete fabrications that no possible set of facts could possibly support. In the sole remaining claim, the duty of fair representation claim, the judge made note of "Atkins" as a case which he considers most resembles the RJDC claim, although as the judge noted, the RJDC claims fall short of the facts in "Atkins". By the way, "Atkins" was a DFR case in which the union prevailed in court. The judge didn't even approve the RJDC motion to add 300 hundred plaintiffs, instead he ordered them to seek class certification, a lengthy and costly process, or explain to him why not.

Just something for you to consider.

 

[Typhoon1244]

A lot of ex-Eastern guys proved you can't sue ALPA and win.

There's got to be a better way...

 

[Publishers]

But

The fact is that any national type union is going to be like ALPA. These unions always have politics and disparity between the companies they deal with and various member groups. The biggest block paying the biggest dues makes the rules.

When you have your own, like APA, there are some advantages as at least you know your situation. That said, however, you lose some of the national perspective and impact.

Frankly the protect the profession stuff is pretty meaningless as it does not work for the most part. When the rubber meets the runway, individuals do what is best for themselves.

 

[FlyComAirJets]

Gee, where did I see that in the ALPA Constitution & By-Laws? What do we call that, some sort of checkbook representation? He who pays the most, gets the most representation.

Does that mean that I get more rights because of my two decades of dues paying as opposed to mainline guy with, say, only five years of membership? What about furloughees, they are not paying any dues these troubled times.

Doesn't make much sense, does it?

You might be right on this one, Publishers. ALPA is pretty skewed right now, they really need to sit in on some of those CRM classes that we all have to attend.

 

[N2264J]

Let me see, 9 out of 10 of the RJDC's claims were thrown out on the first motion to dismiss. Five of them, the ones with all the monetary damages...

I realize this is the mantra that the DMEC is using to pacify and wheedle their pilots. But if you read the decision, the Judge mentions that the two of the other nine counts were "necessarily duplicative of and preempted by" the big enchilada, Duty of Fair Representation. In other words redundant. The six claims about grievances and hearing boards were dismissed giving ALPA wide latitude over their internal grievance process as well as the "equal rights" count, the Labor Management Reporting and Disclosure Act claim.

The money damages are set aside by the court because ASA and Comair haven't quite run up against the scope limits and therefore haven't been harmed yet. Yet.

The judge didn't even approve the RJDC motion to add 300 hundred plaintiffs, instead he ordered them to seek class certification, a lengthy and costly process, or explain to him why not. Just something for you to consider.

Technically correct but note the context. Why go through the process of adding 300 plaintiffs to the suit if everyone on the Comair seniority list is certified as a class action? (Which, by the way, the Judge recommended)

Still, the Judge thinks the plaintiffs have a case on DFR and
I would characterize his decision as "less than receptive" to all ALPA's arguments on the lynchpin issue.

 

[mesapilot]

Typhoon-

<<I'll bet this is the opinion of more than one mainline pilot. You come right out and say it yourself.>>

You bet it is, ask any major airline furloughee who has seen their flying go to the regionals in the form of growth and larger RJ's. I am not advocating that I take your job, just that scope clauses be enforced instead of capitulated. That is my heartburn with ALPA. 70 seaters/90 seaters then what? The line has to be drawn somewhere.

<<You sir, are an elitist of the first order.

Elitists eventually have their palaces leveled by the peasants.>>

Feeling insecure?? I never said I was better than you. In fact I bet we are alot more alike than you think. I wish there were no regionals. I wish that there was one seniority list. How this will happen, I don't know. However, the more Comair,Mesa etc. grows, the worse this profession will be. Think Comair would pay the same as Delta on the 777???

<<I'm done taking one for the team. I now see how the team views me. Screw you and your career aspirations. I'm going to start working on mine.>>

Well, goes both ways, which is why I say, go ahead and support your RJDC. It will NEVER work. Scope is meant to protect mainline jobs, not guarantee the progression of your career. You want a mainline job, fill out an application, the rest of us did. And if you make it, which I sincerely hope you do, then you'll understand why scope is so important. I didn't make it that way, it's just the order of the universe.

Best wishes-

 

[Publishers]

Points

It is the size of the voting block and what % it takes to get passage that is always the important thing.

What you have here is simple different interests. On your side, you are trying to skew the rules so you have a better chance of the wonderful major career.

On their side, why should they care, they are more interested in work rules that allow them to reduce their handicap or work on their other business.

Even if you are successful in your conspiracy, some other clown will come along and fly against you resulting in your changing the rules once again.

In the end, mostly pointless.

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

Eagle-ista, that scope... clown is downright delusional in nearly every misstatement he spews. I pray that he isn't a Comair or, God forbid, an ASA pilot. How would you like someone of his ilk on your team? When push comes to shove, as it does in every heated contract negotiations, he will be the first to cave in. Later, he'll blame his lack of conviction on the RJDC, sunspots, or anything else. Boot licking to get a mainline job, yeah, that'll work.

Delta pilots just love to point to the fact we were offered some sort of flow through during the late nineties, the particulars of which never seemed to be put down on paper. It was a sham that was all too transparent. They might sell out their junior pilots (their furloughees come to mind), but we haven't. The lessons learned from the 16 year Eagle contract were not lost to us.

Sure, try and lecture an Eagle pilot about inter-MEC communications. What you will get is a chronology of APA rebuffs and subterfuge. I hope you guys go right on bootin' mailine backside.

YAWN, try again sparky. Surely you can do better that that. I ask again, how does one "lick boots" on an anonymous BB. Fact: flow through was discussed. Fact, it was summarily dismissed by the our at Comair and ASA without discussion.

Deal with it, or just keep posting emotional , baseless responses.

--a concerned regional pilot

 

[FlyComAirJets]

C'mon, it must be getting real easy for you. You just spout your drivel and and PM a mainline pilot and say. 'hey. it's me, that back-stabbing clown on Flghtinfo, can you run my resume in for me -- just file it under w for weasel.'

Fact: every flow through eventually collapses like any pyramid scheme. Fact: every flow through has a price or the Delta mainline would have implemented it during C2K. Still following me, binkie? Signing off on a flow through would have cost a lot, benifitted just a few (ask an Eagle pilot how many flowed through, somewhere in the area of 130 pilots and look at what price). Why are you in such a rush to sell out your junior pilots? They would never have flowed through but oh, look at the price they would have paid.

Good deal for you, bad for them. But then, it's all about you, right?

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

C'mon, it must be getting real easy for you. You just spout your drivel and and PM a mainline pilot and say. 'hey. it's me, that back-stabbing clown on Flghtinfo, can you run my resume in for me -- just file it under w for weasel.'

Fact: every flow through eventually collapses like any pyramid scheme. Fact: every flow through has a price or the Delta mainline would have implemented it during C2K. Still following me, binkie? Signing off on a flow through would have cost a lot, benifitted just a few (ask an Eagle pilot how many flowed through, somewhere in the area of 130 pilots and look at what price). Why are you in such a rush to sell out your junior pilots? They would never have flowed through but oh, look at the price they would have paid.

Good deal for you, bad for them. But then, it's all about you, right?

Well, that's a little better. Fact:mainline cannot impose a flow through on us. We would have to agree. Fact: Nobody said that a flow through would have to be like the Eagle's. Fact: the problem is our lifers, like you, who like being the big fish in the little pond. They can't handle the thought of being junior to a 3 year Delta pilot or being bumped a little lower on the totem pole by a few flow backs. Conjecture: it is highly unlikely that a single Comair or ASA pilotwould have been furloughed in the past 2 years even with a flow back. The Delta pilot list is down by 600-800 pilots in retirements alone. Absorbtion would have occured, and when the good times return, advancement. Your fear is not unusual for the usual, set-minded pilot at Comair and ASA. Our pilots are the problem, not the Delta pilots.

--a concerned regional pilot

 

[Thrust Master]

While I currently can't stand the current
ALPA, they are a great resource whether it
is legal, medical, yada yada yada.

What needs to be done in my opinion is this

1) A national election in which every paying member
gets to vote on who will represent them. Not our MEC's.

2) Across the board pay scale. That's it.

If the people intend to keep there current position then they
best campaign to all ALPA memebers what it is they stand
for and there goals for all pilots. At there cost. Whether it be
video mail or paper mail. And term limits to keep them from
turning into what has made ALPA a laughing structure it has
become within the pilot communittee. PAC limits period to any
Congressman or Senator.

This has to start at the local level and can be acheived.
This is the only way I can think of a way it can become fair
and balanced for all pilots.

I've seen President Bush speak twice just in Wisconsin
since his election, when is the last time you saw our ALPA
president speak at any local meeting, or your own MEC
other than the current voice mail call in system.
My current MEC has elected not to update myself via e-mail's
that he sends out to our ALPA group because we have had
some differences. I know I'm not the only one this has
happened to...

ALPA is strong and can continue to get better if we as
members decide it is time for a change.
We all want fair and balanced, how about a equal number
of Regional pilots on the ALPA board as opposed to the
current system...


The Snake is back

 

[46Driver]

ScopeCMRandASA,
Just so I am clear on this: you are proposing that pilots who have been at Comair and ASA for say 10+ years should be junior to somebody who has been at Delta for say 3 years if the mainline pilots got "flowed down" to the regionals? I am just asking to see if I have this clear.

 

[FDJ2]

Re: Re: Time for ALPA to split?

Still, the Judge thinks the plaintiffs have a case on DFR and
I would characterize his decision as "less than receptive" to all ALPA's arguments on the lynchpin issue.

The Judge has no opinion on the merits or lack of merit of the RJDC case. All the judge did was rule that in a DFR case his court had jurisdiction and the CMR pilots have made a claim that ALPA has violated its duty of fair representation. The RJDC has yet to make a case, it has only made a claim. You can claim anything, proving it is another matter.

In this motion to dismiss, all the facts and inferences need to be given to the plaintiffs. That is a high hurdle for ALPA to overcome. Imagine if you were accused of robbing a bank and you were unable to dispute the claim and the judge was required to accept all the allegations made by the prosecutor as fact, that should give you some idea of how heavily weighted a motion to dismiss is for the plaintiffs prior to discovery.

Despite those odds, ALPA was able to toss out 9 out of 10 of the RJDC's claims. Yes, 2 of those claims were redundant, which makes you wonder why they were even made in this court in the first place, but 6 were complete fabrications that no possible set of facts could prove and the tenth claim was also dismissed.

If you want to characterize having 90% of your case tossed out before discovery as having a receptive judge, have at it.

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

ScopeCMRandASA,
Just so I am clear on this: you are proposing that pilots who have been at Comair and ASA for say 10+ years should be junior to somebody who has been at Delta for say 3 years if the mainline pilots got "flowed down" to the regionals? I am just asking to see if I have this clear.

It was only an example of what fear exists in the minds of the senior population of the regional airlines. I have flown with it first hand. A flow--through could have infinite possibilities. Those who choose not to flow could be protected in their seat. Are you saying that there should be a flow-up without a flow down? Do you realize that the most junior pilot on the Delta property is making 127.92/hr? Not to mention the retirement, medical, and the quality of life provided for in their contract. In a flow through/list merger, why should a 20 year Comair or ASA pilot, making less than current Delta pilots, with less career expectations, be placed above that of a 3 year Delta pilot? Sorry to answer your question with a question, but it is exactly that type of mindset which these guys possess, and probably the reason that there is not a flow through in place which will ensure me a place at the table when it is my turn.

--a concerned regional pilot

 

[100LL... Again!]

This crap about career expectations is just that - crap.

Go ahead and have all the expectations in the world. Have fun.

So you are saying that because a 3-yr Delta pilot is earning more than a 10-yr CMR pilot that they should flush down even those who would choose to flow up?

The unfairness of a pilocy like that is evident to anyone with a shred of sense.

The best the flow-back pilot should expect is DOH at the associated regional.

Three years w/mainline? Flow back to 3-yr at the regional.

Beats furlough. Are the furloughed pilots having some address their 'expectations'.

That's about an even-on deal with the flow-through, especially since there are likely to be conditions on that as well.

Frankly, the very notion of expectations requires me to flash the elitist card again.

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

This crap about career expectations is just that - crap.

Go ahead and have all the expectations in the world. Have fun.

So you are saying that because a 3-yr Delta pilot is earning more than a 10-yr CMR pilot that they should flush down even those who would choose to flow up?

The unfairness of a pilocy like that is evident to anyone with a shred of sense.

The best the flow-back pilot should expect is DOH at the associated regional.

Three years w/mainline? Flow back to 3-yr at the regional.

Beats furlough. Are the furloughed pilots having some address their 'expectations'.

That's about an even-on deal with the flow-through, especially since there are likely to be conditions on that as well.

Frankly, the very notion of expectations requires me to flash the elitist card again.

Well then I guess we know why it isn't being discussed. Career expectations are VERY real. They are the cornerstone of ALPA merger policy. I happen to know some furloughed Delta guys who are making out much better than 3 yr regional pay. Perhaps the elitist, as I have said, exist at the DCi carriers. They don't have career expectations so they must rely on the "an airplane is an airplane" argument. Although I agree with the latter, the former hits the bullseye. And some us had the nerve to be shocked when the Delta pilots opposed the PID. Unbelievable. BTW, it's difficult to be elitist when you are:

--a concerned regional pilot

 

[Typhoon1244]

Hey mesapilot,

You need to try actually reading the thread before you start posting. You're crediting me with a bunch of inflammatory remarks made by 100LL. I said I agreed with him on not questioning why the RJDC exists...I think they're making a huge mistake, but I understand their motives.

If you can't debate without making mistakes like this, stay off the board!

 

[InclusiveScope]

Scope,
Tell me more about career expectations. Can you show me how that is defined by ALPA? Is there a definition in the ALPA merger policy? Is there a definition in the ALPA Constitution and ByLaws? What is the "career expectations" of a USAirways pilot hired in 2000? What is the "career expectations" of a PanAm pilot, TWA pilot, Eastern pilot, Braniff pilot? How about even a United pilot now? Can you tell me what my "career expectation" is - if so, how do you know what my "career expectation" is?

 

[100LL... Again!]

You're a concerned regional pilot who seems fairly certain of getting on with a major.

Would you feel the same if you knew for certain that you would retire from a regional?

If so, you are quite altruistic.

I will be surprised if this question receives a direct answer.

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

Scope,
Tell me more about career expectations. Can you show me how that is defined by ALPA? Is there a definition in the ALPA merger policy? Is there a definition in the ALPA Constitution and ByLaws? What is the "career expectations" of a USAirways pilot hired in 2000? What is the "career expectations" of a PanAm pilot, TWA pilot, Eastern pilot, Braniff pilot? How about even a United pilot now? Can you tell me what my "career expectation" is - if so, how do you know what my "career expectation" is?

You can be coy if you wish. I'll say it again, people like you are the reason that there is no dialogue between our two groups. You can't, or won't, seem to realize that. Therefore, YOU are the ego problem in this relationship. Not the Delta pilots. They have built and built, and are now the highest paid pilots in the world. You want them to take the fall, lose seniority, take paycuts, so that we can be on one list. Ain't gonna happen. You want to lay down the subtle threat that the lawsuit will prevail, so that the Delta pilots will cave on scope, or the lists will be merged. A pipe dream. Ain't gonna happen.

How about we talk about something relevant. How about the career expectations of a Delta pilot hired in 2001 compared to that of a Comair pilot at 20 years seniority today. I'll even say that the Delta pilot will be 40 when recalled. He/she will be recalled to a 160/hr+ job with the expectation of retiring in the top 1000 at 250-300K a year with the associated health, retirement (160-180K/yr). How does this compare to the career expectations of the 20 year Comair pilot or even the 10 year Comair pilot, or even the 1 yr Comair pilot? Answer: it blows them away. Now how does this relate to ALPA merger policy? Well, I'm glad you asked. ALPA merger policy does not have anything to do with career expectations. It does, however, say that no pilot will benefit at the expense of another...paraphrased. Now, if you place the 20 yr Comair/ASA pilot ahead of the 3 year Delta furloughed pilot, you have failed ALPA merger policy, where as if the Comair/ASA pilot goes below the 3 year furloughed Delta pilot, neither has received a windfall at the others expense. It quite reasonable and logical to do it this way as opposed to putting the 20 year captain from Comair into the left seat of a 767 with the associated 150%pay raise, retirement, etc. A place where his career expectation never had him. This argument is reasonable/logical. Not like the argument for straight seniority. Again, the problem is with the senior contingent at Comair and ASA. I have flown with them, and they are neither reasonable or logical. They would push ALPA merger policy all the way to arbitration and put their fate in the hands of an outsider who knows little of the airline business, its union history, or the ins and outs of past mergers. This is why tyhey will spend the rest of their life as RJ captains with the associated pay, and people like me will move on to greener pastures.

To sum up, your career expectations are a snapshot of your current contract compared to your projected seniority at your current carrier. It works fine, and effectively is required by ALPA BL even if it is not spelled out as such. Pan AM? BK--different animal. TWA/AA? ALPA vs APA. Braniff? BK different animal. USAirways? Didn't know they were merging, but I would imagine that they would take it pretty much in the shorts in a merger with Delta as well as United. Just the way it works. If you were trying to name the "major carriers who are not/may not be around anymore, would you like to list the regionals who are not around anymore? A very long list.

--a concerned regional pilot

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

You're a concerned regional pilot who seems fairly certain of getting on with a major.

Would you feel the same if you knew for certain that you would retire from a regional?

If so, you are quite altruistic.

I will be surprised if this question receives a direct answer.

Actually, the question does not apply to me as I will move on to greener pastures. I will answer yes, if I knew for certain I would retire at this level I would feel the same. I made my decisions and I live with them. I do not blame others for my plight. I knew what I was getting myself into, and I knew the rules, both written and implied. I will refrain from judging you. I came here knowing that we get what the Delta pilots don't want in terms of Delta flying. We are the supporters, not the controllers. You can deal with it and try to improve your lot, or be a bitter, old Comair/ASA pilot. Don't you think we have enough of them?
Mine is not the shoulder to cry on.


--a concerned regional pilot