Time for ALPA to split?

[scopeCMRandASA]

Let me also remind you that if, for example, the Delta MEC had done what we wanted, our CRJ's would be full of highly-paid, "professional" mainline pilots and we'd all be on the street. Don't say they didn't have their chance.

Can we at least keep with facts? This statement is NOT fact. IMO, nothing could be further from the truth. You were doing fine until you started chanting the RJDC fight song

--a concerned regional pilot

 

[Typhoon1244]

You were doing fine until you started chanting the RJDC fight song.

Whoa, hold the phone! I'm not an RJDC member, not do I plan to be one in the near future. I think they're making a mistake...for any number of reasons.

In any case, why is what I said "NOT fact?" Was the whole "One List" push a halucination? After Delta bought ASA, an awful lot of us...the majority, I daresay...wanted the Delta guys to pull us onto their seniority list. Of course, that was a dead issue, didn't even get off the launch pad. They didn't want us there.

But if it had been pursued, I'd be out of a job now.

So what am I wrong about?

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

Whoa, hold the phone! I'm not an RJDC member, not do I plan to be one in the near future. I think they're making a mistake...for any number of reasons.

In any case, why is what I said "NOT fact?" Was the whole "One List" push a halucination? After Delta bought ASA, an awful lot of us...the majority, I daresay...wanted the Delta guys to pull us onto their seniority list. Of course, that was a dead issue, didn't even get off the launch pad. They didn't want us there.

But if it had been pursued, I'd be out of a job now.

So what am I wrong about?

In reading either contract, as well as the Delta contract, I fail to find anything which required Delta to merge the lists with the DAL pilots the Comair pilots and the ASA pilots. What legal ground did we have to stand on? Even if there was a liberal interpretation of the Constitution and Bylaws, nothing in the world would have required Delta to merge the companies, or even honor such a list. You insinuated that if a single list was PURSUED that it would have been ACHIEVED and you would be out of a job. This is but one outcome which could have occured, and the least likely in everybodies opinions except RJDC andsome of our ASA and Comair hopefuls. More likely would have been an outright "NO" from Delta management. A much more successful approach would have been a flow through of significant proportions reached in theory with the Delta pilots and pursued in their contract negotiations as well as here at Comair. Hotter heads prevailed on our side and here is where we are today. Delta could have also just sold or spun off Comair and ASA, which would have benefitted them more than a single list between Delta, Comair, and ASA. Delta has enourmous power with our three groups seperate. Why would they divest themselves of that by allowing a merger and creating 1 supergroup union on the property. Answer: they wouldn't. RJDC can spin it all they like, but it simply wouldn't happen. Your job would have still been safe, IMO. I personally would have accepted an iron clad flow through 1:1. It would have served the same purpose as a merger for my pruposes, and would have been palatable to the Delta MEC. It was our ggroups who got greedy, not theirs.


--a concerned regional pilot

 

[T-Gates]

An RJDC Thread is born.......

Take it to the ALPA Boards.....



--03M

 

[Typhoon1244]

scopeCMRandASA, I agree with everything you said. We both told the same story...yours was the unabridged version.

So what are we arguing about? Are you telling me that the Delta guys who are on furlough wouldn't have liked to have a Continental-style reverse-flow to Comair and ASA?

I'm saying the intent was there. Actually negotiating it and making it happen would have been another story!

 

[Typhoon1244]

An RJDC Thread is born...

Originally posted by 46driver
I can't believe you deleted those [off-topic] threads...they were the only place I could go on this board and not have it turn into a Delta/Comair screaming match or a Bobbysamd vendetta against PFT.

Enjoy!

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

scopeCMRandASA, I agree with everything you said. We both told the same story...yours was the unabridged version.

So what are we arguing about? Are you telling me that the Delta guys who are on furlough wouldn't have liked to have a Continental-style reverse-flow to Comair and ASA?

I'm saying the intent was there. Actually negotiating it and making it happen would have been another story!

I wouldn't call it arguing I do not know if the guys on furlough would like the reverse flow. I would imagine that they would, if it even would have existed. We'll never know because our respective MECs shot it down without even a peek. Onelist or nothing. We get nothing. I personally think if such an arrangement had been made, that there would not be any flush out of the bottom of our lists in this tie of crisis, it would have been absorbed by what has been added in the way of rjs. Now we have nothing to shoot for as Comair/ASA pilots except an interview elsewhere someday. Thanks RJDC.

PS, I don't think this thread has strayed off topic. We have been discussing why another pilots union may be born.

--a concerned regional pilot

 

[46Driver]

Enjoy!

The horror, the horror.....

I wanna PFT and join the RJDC for one list and even though military pilots are better - also repeal the age 60 rule, reiterate supply and demand - almost forgot, bash MESA. Did I leave anything out?

 

[mesapilot]

Typhoon1244-

First of all, don't be so sensitive about the word "profession". It appears as though you thought I was inferring that regional pilots were not as "good" as the majors. I've been in both organizations, it isn't true.

Until I am a number on your list or your on mine, we are not in the same "union". Major airlines screwed up but not forcing management to keep RJs in house. Forget supply/demand, it's all about the cost. Regionals are cheap and easy to replace. That's the only reason the flying isn't being done in house. That's not a reflection on the employees, just the business plan.

 

[Typhoon1244]

I wanna PFT and join the RJDC for one list and even though military pilots are better - also repeal the age 60 rule, reiterate supply and demand - almost forgot, bash MESA. Did I leave anything out?

You forgot to renounce your faith in God and George W. Bush...and when you need to burn an American flag, you'll buy one at Wal-Mart.

 

[Eagle-ista]

Originally posted by scopeCMRandASA
"A couple of misstatements from you. Mainline pilots do NOT bestow a seniority number. Management does via the hiring process."


I must correct you.

At least at AMR, this is not the case. 6+ years ago when the "Flow-through" agreement was signed, one of the offers made was to give Eagle pilots AA seniority numbers. APA refused.

During the current frakus, once again the Eagle MEC approached the APA with a proposal to end the grievances and settle. One of the proposals included senioity numbers for Eagle pilots. APA refused

AMR long ago said that APA controlled the AA seniority list. Even to their own detriment, they have refused to include Eagle pilots on the AA list.

Also, there was a "RAPA". It was the Wings West pilot's union when there were 4 separate carriers at American Eagle. It was a great contract.

 

[FlyComAirJets]

Eagle-ista, that scope... clown is downright delusional in nearly every misstatement he spews. I pray that he isn't a Comair or, God forbid, an ASA pilot. How would you like someone of his ilk on your team? When push comes to shove, as it does in every heated contract negotiations, he will be the first to cave in. Later, he'll blame his lack of conviction on the RJDC, sunspots, or anything else. Boot licking to get a mainline job, yeah, that'll work.

Delta pilots just love to point to the fact we were offered some sort of flow through during the late nineties, the particulars of which never seemed to be put down on paper. It was a sham that was all too transparent. They might sell out their junior pilots (their furloughees come to mind), but we haven't. The lessons learned from the 16 year Eagle contract were not lost to us.

Sure, try and lecture an Eagle pilot about inter-MEC communications. What you will get is a chronology of APA rebuffs and subterfuge. I hope you guys go right on bootin' mailine backside.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Also, there was a "RAPA". It was the Wings West pilot's union...

Well, then maybe we could call it the Federation of Underpaid Cockpit Employee Resources, or FUCER.

 

[chawbein]

If the major airlines went ahead with the "one list" scenario, would it mean that the college degree requirement to fly for the major airlines goes the way of the dodo? Would it mean that now regional pilots would have to have a college degree? If the second were true, would there be a "grandfather clause" or would all regional pilots be required to go out and get a degree? I'm just curious.

My point is that with one list, either Delta has to change their hiring criteria to fit Delta Express (I don't want to type all the names) or would Delta Express have to change their hiring criteria to meet Delta? My bet goes on the second option.

What are the thoughts on that?

 

[Typhoon1244]

Would it mean that now regional pilots would have to have a college degree?

You mean they don't? Hell, I wasted four years!

 

[chawbein]

From Comair's Website
High School Graduate, College Degree Preferred

From Delta Connection's Website
College Degree
For those pursuing a college degree, Delta Connection Academy has joined forces with Broward Community College, Bridgewater State College and Jacksonville University to offer two-year associate's degrees and a four-year bachelor's degree in aviation.

Sure doesn't look like Comair/ASA/Skywest/whatever requires a degree to work for them. Alot of the dudes coming out of the zero to hero programs don't have a degree, just look at the fierce debate on this board about the validity of one.

Just to clarify, does the "one list" mean that you have to be hired by mainline airlines (before you can move up) or does it mean that you are automatically able to upgrade to a larger jet as if you were origionally hired at mainline? Are you getting the jist of what I'm saying, I'm not sure if I'm getting my question right.

 

[100LL... Again!]

-------------------------------------------------------------
Don't take this personally, but most major ALPA members don't care what happens to your regional career. If you want to advance your career, apply to the majors. Otherwise get your own frickin union and stop sucking off of ours. The RJ growth will stop at some point, whether there will be any major airline jobs to go to is questionable, but no matter what, the profession will be much worse off.
-------------------------------------------------------------


If I ever had any doubts about why the RJDC is in existence, this post has blotted them out. This is probably not the effect you intended, but it is the tone COMBINED with the content that finishes off my decision. Thanks for the clarity.

I'll bet this is the opinion of more than one mainline pilot. You come right out and say it yourself.

You sir, are an elitist of the first order.

Elitists eventually have their palaces leveled by the peasants.

I'm done taking one for the team. I now see how the team views me. Screw you and your career aspirations. I'm going to start working on mine.

I give the profession ten years, MAX.



Typhoon - Now if we only agree on religion...

 

[Typhoon1244]

If I ever had any doubts about why the RJDC is in existence, this post has blotted them out.

I know you're not going to believe this, but I agree with 100LL.

(I'm still not quite ready to send money to the RJDC, though...)

 

[N2264J]

I know you're not going to believe this, but I agree with 100LL.

(I'm still not quite ready to send money to the RJDC, though...)

Well, here's something for you to consider:

The Judge's decision this summer not only allowed the case to go forward but while he was at it, he shot all of ALPA's arguments on DFR full of holes.

 

[FDJ2]

Re: Re: Time for ALPA to split?

Well, here's something for you to consider:

The Judge's decision this summer not only allowed the case to go forward but while he was at it, he shot all of ALPA's arguments full of holes.

Let me see, 9 out of 10 of the RJDC's claims were thrown out on the first motion to dismiss. Five of them, the ones with all the monetary damages, because the judge found out that they were complete fabrications that no possible set of facts could possibly support. In the sole remaining claim, the duty of fair representation claim, the judge made note of "Atkins" as a case which he considers most resembles the RJDC claim, although as the judge noted, the RJDC claims fall short of the facts in "Atkins". By the way, "Atkins" was a DFR case in which the union prevailed in court. The judge didn't even approve the RJDC motion to add 300 hundred plaintiffs, instead he ordered them to seek class certification, a lengthy and costly process, or explain to him why not.

Just something for you to consider.