Those Crazy Sweedish Dash Drivers! (gear collapse)

[328dude]

While I don't agree with the Ruskie on this issue, he does have a point with hydralics. Primary hydralics are primarily engine driven and electric or a combination of thereof. Standbys are in some turbo props battery bus. I belive the Dork was like this, but it's been awhile. Total loss of fluid, and the backup for that in regards to braking is accumulators.

 

[The_Russian]

Yeah, but you're singing about things like the APU, batteries, etc... which is madness.

The "Idiot's QRH" reads thusly:

FOR OPERATIONS WITH ALL NEURONS INOPERATIVE:

Admit to being wrong..... [P/F].... "I'm wrong."
STFU ......[P/F].... ""

Sure it is.

You have no way of circulating that Skydrol with the engines inoperative, secured, shutdown, whatever you want to call it. You lose a lot of neato-whizbang stuff without hydraulics on the Dash 8. This isn't a KingAir.

What part of "We have thousands of hours in the DHC8, here are the facts," that you don't understand?

You are telling me that there is no backup hydraulics in the Dash? One poster already told us that the Dash has 2 electric backup pumps. The aircraft must have a standby system or manual reversion and he refered to it.

To apply this to the situation:

Have hydraulics set failsafe to standby and shut the engines down. Two things will happen. you will use the standby to come to a stop on all three gear. Or, you will skid to a stop while maintaining directional control minimzing fire and prop fragmentaion.

C'mon, hours in the log proves nothing. Don't let that slow your ability to think and adapt.

 

[lineflyer1]

Thats up to the crew. They should understand the aircraft and its expected performance and make the decision ased on that information.

When I had my little event, I asked the FO to Feather/Cutoff the engines just prior to when he felt we were going to touchdown. If the aircraft is in the flare and slowing, induced drag is increasing exponentially. Feathering at this time will not cause the aircraft to float as much as you might think. We used battery power to run the hydraulic pumps off the battery (standby power) to slow the aircraft once aerodynamic braking was nil. When we came to a complete stop, we initiated the QRH for emergency evacuation. We also picked the runway and airport with the least x-wind. We ended up landing 31 while the rest of the airport was using 9L/R (KFLL).

This is untrue. I am being throw hypothetical situations in attept to be disproven on FAA supported primary training techniques. Also, people are insisting that I am straying from the QRH, when I am not. What I am talking about has nothing to do with the QRH.

Not if what they did was intended for increasing the level of safety during the outcome of the situation.

What if your F/O screwed up and only shutdown and feathered one of them or one was slower to feather then the other and you had gotten assymetrical drag causing severe yaw in the critical phase of landing?

You are looking to add problems to an already bad situation.

 

[The_Russian]

Primary hydralics are primarily engine driven and electric or a combination of thereof. Standbys are in some turbo props battery bus. I belive the Dork was like this, but it's been awhile. Total loss of fluid, and the backup for that in regards to braking is accumulators.

Absolutely correct.

 

[The_Russian]

What if your F/O screwed up and only shutdown and feathered one of them or one was slower to feather then the other and you had gotten assymetrical drag causing severe yaw in the critical phase of landing?

You are looking to add problems to an already bad situation.

That's my last worry. My crew is properly briefed when things go wrong, and I insist on clear communication. One prop would not feather slow enough to cause an asymetrical load. That would require a control or mechanical failure. Most props fail to feather anyway, and the following fuel shutoff would feather the prop.

Stop throwing hypotheticals. They wont help the discussion. There will always be a hypothetical to counter your hypothetical. It is best to stick to the staight facts.

 

[Sig]

One poster already told us that the Dash has 2 electric backup pumps.

And that poster explained that they run on 3-phase variable AC generators, that only turn dynamically while the engines are in fact running. Ever get juice from your alternator while the car's turned off?

Have hydraulics set failsafe to standby and shut the engines down. Two things will happen. you will use the standby to come to a stop on all three gear.

We're talking about the DeHavilland Dash 8, right?

 

[WSurf]

What if your F/O screwed up and only shutdown and feathered one of them or one was slower to feather then the other and you had gotten assymetrical drag causing severe yaw in the critical phase of landing?

You are looking to add problems to an already bad situation.

Good Point, yet you would still be able to control the airplane! I think you would be more worried about one going into Beta then one feathing before the other.

Hell, just reach up grab both T Handles and pull! Fuel will be shut off, Hydralics Off, and the fire bottles would be ready for you on the ground!!

Funny, imagine telling your 250hr FO thats never shot a approach to mins to pull both the handles!!!

 

[The_Russian]

And that poster explained that they run on 3-phase variable AC generators, that only turn dynamically while the engines are in fact running. Ever get juice from your alternator while the car's turned off?

We're talking about the DeHavilland Dash 8, right?

You have an inverter on a standby bus, right?

 

[Sig]

You have an inverter on a standby bus, right?

Standby bus? Inverter?

Okay, if it takes roughly 87 amps of current, three phases of AC, and 115V of potential coming from either of two engine-driven alternators (this is the term they use in the MX Tech manual to my right), how many flapjacks does it take to shingle a doghouse?

Seriously, lady. You have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[lineflyer1]

That's my last worry. My crew is properly briefed when things go wrong, and I insist on clear communication. One prop would not feather slow enough to cause an asymetrical load. That would require a control or mechanical failure. Most props fail to feather anyway, and the following fuel shutoff would feather the prop.

Stop throwing hypotheticals. They wont help the discussion. There will always be a hypothetical to counter your hypothetical. It is best to stick to the staight facts.

So you have an understanding that most props fail to feather, so you have a relativly good chance that one out the two will not feather properly according to your thought process, so you feather and shutdown both engines in the critical phase of landing anyway?

BTW, by the time the engines are actually shutdown and the engine speed reduces enough to allow the oil pressure to reduce low enough to allow the props to feather in your scenerio you've run out of time!

 

[The_Russian]

Standby bus? Inverter?

Okay, if it takes roughly 87 amps of current, three phases of AC, and 115V of potential coming from either of two engine-driven alternators (this is the term they use in the MX Tech manual to my right), how many flapjacks does it take to shingle a doghouse?

Seriously, lady. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Are you going to answer the question?

 

[Sig]

Are you going to answer the question?

As soon as you ask one within the domain of the DHC-8 systems, of course I will.

 

[The_Russian]

So you have an understanding that most props fail to feather, so you have a relativly good chance that one out the two will not feather properly according to your thought process, so you feather and shutdown both engines in the critical phase of landing anyway?

BTW, by the time the engines are actually shutdown and the engine speed reduces enough to allow the oil pressure to reduce low enough to allow the props to feather in your scenerio you've run out of time!

Your posts do not apply to the topic. Stick to the situation at hand. How often do props not feather when commanded? Give me a break. All four of the turboprops I have flown feather in one second or less, consistantly, when commanded. Three of those failed to feather, the EMB-120 does not. The 120 didn't fail me, neither did my FO.

 

[WSurf]

This is the most fun I have had in a long time!!!

Give'em Hell Russian!!!

 

[DashTrash400]

Hey Russian! You wanna know what it's like to land a DHC8 with no hydraulics? It's been done at Horizon before following a massive engine fire. You can check out the results here:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001213X25438&key=1

The airplane was totalled when it hit the jetway and several people were hurt, one critically. It's by the grace of God and the skill of the FA in evacuating everyone that nobody was killed.

Here's what you lose when both engines are shut down on a Q400:

-All AC Power, including the Standby Hyd Pump.
-DC Generators
-EPCU (electronic power control unit) goes into emergency mode, leaving a few DC-powered gadgets usable. APU does not work in air (WOW switch).
-Landing Gear
-Spoilers
-Steering
-Emergency Brake except via accumulator good for about three pumps as previous poster noted.
-Normal Braking
-Antiskid
-Flaps
-PTU
-All Rudder
-2/3 of Elevator PCUs

Not to mention that a Q400 gets a big portion of its lift from propwash over the wing & flaps and landing without power results in a scary hard landing, and using pitch to get the oh-so-soft landing you demand would break the tail off the airplane!

Now go back to telling us how to fly a B1900 you've bought a job on, and shut the he|| up on telling us how to fly Q400s/DHC8s when you know nothing about the airplane.