Those Crazy Sweedish Dash Drivers! (gear collapse)

[Wiggums]

Hyd on battery will suffice for enough time (at least) to stop any turboprop.

What about the TU-95? Can you stop that aircraft with just the battery powered stby hyd? If anyone here should know I guess it would be you.

 

[The_Russian]

What about the TU-95? Can you stop that aircraft with just the battery powered stby hyd? If anyone here should know I guess it would be you.

Is this how you make your point, with sarcasm?

 

[WSurf]

Those guys had no way of knowing that the gear was going to collape, and turning that thing into a 60,000lb glider as a "precaution" would be absolutely foolish IMO.

Exactly! Now to Defend Russian.... I believe there was a ASA EMB120 in MCO that had gear problems, however they couldn't get one gear to come down. So they decided to belly the airplane, and right before touch down they secured both engines and the props just stopped spinning as they bellied it! It was one hell of a job... Wish I could find the video, and I will look for it. That situation, yea!

However, if they had no indication that the gear was gonna collapse you would be a fool to shut them both down!

Now, if they had gear problems in the Dash' 100-300's series you have seen the back gear doors open in a attempt to free fall the gear. Then in the alternate nose gear door in the cockpit you can use the optical Gear indication. If they are all green then the gear is in the lock posion.

So I am surprised the the back gear doors were still closed while the gear was down!
They probably could have used one of our crusty old Piedmont pilots up there!

Anyone have a link to a offical report on it?

Sorry it was Comair Not ASA! Here is the landing, but this video doesn't show them shutting them down... Nice Job However. And the 120 is a squirally airplane to land!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtQrr8ptSBE

 

[LR25]

I'll take the bait.

Russian, its very apparent you do not know what your talking about, but instead of removing your foot from your mouth, you keep shoving untill your knee cap is in as well.

Sit back, take a breath, and re-group

 

[quinnlake]

Are you saying that there is no backup braking method or system? Can't you put the brakes on backup hyd? Ther must be a way. You cannot certify an aircraft with hydraulics and not have a backup system for the primary.

Standby hydro is driven by AC power. AC power is driven off the gear reduction box. Props in feather means no AC, no AC means no standby hydro. Therefore, shutting down/feathering both engines means no hydro, except an accumulator for the emergency brake only. No rudder, no normal brakes, no flight spoiler, and for the pilot that puts himself in the position, no more job. Russian, again, what DASH time do you have? You don't know the airplane. Worse yet, you think you know it better than the people who fly it and designed it. It is better to remain silent and thought an idiot than to speak and remove all doubt.

 

[The_Russian]

Exactly! Now to Defend Russian.... I believe there was a ASA EMB120 in MCO that had gear problems, however they couldn't get one gear to come down. So they decided to belly the airplane, and right before touch down they secured both engines and the props just stopped spinning as they bellied it! It was one hell of a job... Wish I could find the video, and I will look for it. That situation, yea!

However, if they had no indication that the gear was gonna collapse you would be a fool to shut them both down!

Now, if they had gear problems in the Dash' 100-300's series you have seen the back gear doors open in a attempt to free fall the gear. Then in the alternate nose gear door in the cockpit you can use the optical Gear indication. If they are all green then the gear is in the lock posion.

So I am surprised the the back gear doors were still closed while the gear was down!
They probably could have used one of our crusty old Piedmont pilots up there!

Anyone have a link to a offical report on it?

Sorry it was Comair Not ASA! Here is the landing, but this video doesn't show them shutting them down... Nice Job However. And the 120 is a squirally airplane to land!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtQrr8ptSBE

Good post. I completely agree.

 

[Wiggums]

Is this how you make your point, with sarcasm?

I made my point. You are making a bunch of generalization about the capabilities of aircraft even though you do not know what you are talking about.

There are big turboprops that probably aren't designed to be stopped on backup hyd except in an extreme emergency. There are rudder systems that have no "manual reversion" and rely on hyd from at least one system, which will have be electrically powered. And from the other thread you suggest that the proper technique for landing ANY aircraft with a gear unsafe indication is to shutdown all engines.

There are techniques that are appropriate certain aircraft. I'm not arguing about the 1900. If the manufacture recommends shutting down the engines when the gear is unsafe I would definitely follow that advice. However, that does not necessarily carry over to bigger and more complex aircraft.

 

[The_Russian]

I'll take the bait.

Russian, its very apparent you do not know what your talking about, but instead of removing your foot from your mouth, you keep shoving untill your knee cap is in as well.

Sit back, take a breath, and re-group

Good advice. However, I think people here are missing the point. These guys are doing nothing but throwing out rhetoric that is hypothetical. Trying to argue hypotheticals is like trying to get a 5 year old to go to bed when he wants to watch tv. These guys are insisting that I am trying to change a procedure or re-write a QRH. This is not what I am talking about. I am talking about technique.

 

[The_Russian]

Standby hydro is driven by AC power. AC power is driven off the gear reduction box. Props in feather means no AC, no AC means no standby hydro. Therefore, shutting down/feathering both engines means no hydro, except an accumulator for the emergency brake only. No rudder, no normal brakes, no flight spoiler, and for the pilot that puts himself in the position, no more job. Russian, again, what DASH time do you have? You don't know the airplane. Worse yet, you think you know it better than the people who fly it and designed it. It is better to remain silent and thought an idiot than to speak and remove all doubt.

This is an emergency, do what you need to do to save lives. Use the emergency accumulator if you need to. It is better than a fire or dead passengers. Dash time does not matter. Technique to meet the situation matters. Read what I am writing, don't interperet it to be anything else. Read the other posts.

 

[quinnlake]

This is an emergency, do what you need to do to save lives. Use the emergency accumulator if you need to. It is better than a fire or dead passengers. Dash time does not matter. Technique to meet the situation matters. Read what I am writing, don't interperet it to be anything else. Read the other posts.

Read my post more carefully, it has an accumulator for the emergency brake only, not an emergency accumulator.

 

[LR25]

Good advice. However, I think people here are missing the point. These guys are doing nothing but throwing out rhetoric that is hypothetical. Trying to argue hypotheticals is like trying to get a 5 year old to go to bed when he wants to watch tv. These guys are insisting that I am trying to change a procedure or re-write a QRH. This is not what I am talking about. I am talking about technique.

I guess the reason your getting resistance is, at what point do you want to fly an airplane with no rudder. What altitude should you chop both motors.

When I went through DASH training, there was an instance where they had a fire one one of the motors that they could not extinguish. As they flared on touchdown, the fire had burned through the hydrualic supply line from the remaining good motor. So at this point, they lost the rudder, remember, they were one one engine. Everything worked out becuase it happened right at touchdown. If I remember right, they ended up going off the runway into the grass.

Your throwing out ideas, that just dont add up, and your being called on them.

If these guys would have done what your proposing, and the end result was the same, they would probobly never fly for an airline again, at least for that airline.

 

[The_Russian]

I made my point. You are making a bunch of generalization about the capabilities of aircraft even though you do not know what you are talking about.

All aircraft certified under Part 25 must meet the same conditions. While performance may be different, all aircraft fly the same. The same overall technique and airmenship must be used to pilot them. Refer to the AIM and FAA AFH.

There are big turboprops that probably aren't designed to be stopped on backup hyd except in an extreme emergency.

This is an emergency. The airframe will most likely be totaled if it doesn't need major repairs. People were injured as a result of this crews decision to use poor technique.

There are rudder systems that have no "manual reversion" and rely on hyd from at least one system, which will have be electrically powered. And from the other thread you suggest that the proper technique for landing ANY aircraft with a gear unsafe indication is to shutdown all engines.

They may have no manual reversion, but they require a standby system. If the primary is mechanical, then there must be an electical hydraulic system or a manual reversion. An electic backup hydraulic system can pressurize any hydraulic system for more than enough time to stop an aircraft IF the gear does not collapse as expected.

Any turboprop aircraft or any piston driven prop too. Shudown and feathering is to minimize damge, fire, and injury.

There are techniques that are appropriate certain aircraft. I'm not arguing about the 1900. If the manufacture recommends shutting down the engines when the gear is unsafe I would definitely follow that advice. However, that does not necessarily carry over to bigger and more complex aircraft.

Your primary training applys to all aircraft that can be flown. If a prop is going to strike and fragment, you stop it from doing so before it does.

There was a Dash 8 in South America that shutdown and feathered the engines prior to touchdown. Same thing, no right main gear. They stayed on the runway surface and skidded to a stop with no fire. No one got injured on their flight. There is a video, but I can't find it anymore. It was posted on FI.

 

[The_Russian]

Read my post more carefully, it has an accumulator for the emergency brake only, not an emergency accumulator.

That's what I meant, sorry. Either way, there should be a backup to actuate the brakes in a loss of hydraulic pressure.

 

[The_Russian]

I guess the reason your getting resistance is, at what point do you want to fly an airplane with no rudder. What altitude should you chop both motors.

Thats up to the crew. They should understand the aircraft and its expected performance and make the decision ased on that information.

When I had my little event, I asked the FO to Feather/Cutoff the engines just prior to when he felt we were going to touchdown. If the aircraft is in the flare and slowing, induced drag is increasing exponentially. Feathering at this time will not cause the aircraft to float as much as you might think. We used battery power to run the hydraulic pumps off the battery (standby power) to slow the aircraft once aerodynamic braking was nil. When we came to a complete stop, we initiated the QRH for emergency evacuation. We also picked the runway and airport with the least x-wind. We ended up landing 31 while the rest of the airport was using 9L/R (KFLL).

Your throwing out ideas, that just dont add up, and your being called on them.

This is untrue. I am being throw hypothetical situations in attept to be disproven on FAA supported primary training techniques. Also, people are insisting that I am straying from the QRH, when I am not. What I am talking about has nothing to do with the QRH.

If these guys would have done what your proposing, and the end result was the same, they would probobly never fly for an airline again, at least for that airline.

Not if what they did was intended for increasing the level of safety during the outcome of the situation.

 

[Sig]

That's what I meant, sorry. Either way, there should be a backup to actuate the brakes in a loss of hydraulic pressure.

Yeah, but you're singing about things like the APU, batteries, etc... which is madness.

The "Idiot's QRH" reads thusly:

FOR OPERATIONS WITH ALL NEURONS INOPERATIVE:

Admit to being wrong..... [P/F].... "I'm wrong."
STFU ......[P/F].... ""


You have no way of circulating that Skydrol with the engines inoperative, secured, shutdown, whatever you want to call it. You lose a lot of neato-whizbang stuff without hydraulics on the Dash 8. This isn't a KingAir.

What part of "We have thousands of hours in the DHC8, here are the facts," that you don't understand?

 

[328dude]

While I don't agree with the Ruskie on this issue, he does have a point with hydralics. Primary hydralics are primarily engine driven and electric or a combination of thereof. Standbys are in some turbo props battery bus. I belive the Dork was like this, but it's been awhile. Total loss of fluid, and the backup for that in regards to braking is accumulators.

 

[The_Russian]

Yeah, but you're singing about things like the APU, batteries, etc... which is madness.

The "Idiot's QRH" reads thusly:

FOR OPERATIONS WITH ALL NEURONS INOPERATIVE:

Admit to being wrong..... [P/F].... "I'm wrong."
STFU ......[P/F].... ""

Sure it is.

You have no way of circulating that Skydrol with the engines inoperative, secured, shutdown, whatever you want to call it. You lose a lot of neato-whizbang stuff without hydraulics on the Dash 8. This isn't a KingAir.

What part of "We have thousands of hours in the DHC8, here are the facts," that you don't understand?

You are telling me that there is no backup hydraulics in the Dash? One poster already told us that the Dash has 2 electric backup pumps. The aircraft must have a standby system or manual reversion and he refered to it.

To apply this to the situation:

Have hydraulics set failsafe to standby and shut the engines down. Two things will happen. you will use the standby to come to a stop on all three gear. Or, you will skid to a stop while maintaining directional control minimzing fire and prop fragmentaion.

C'mon, hours in the log proves nothing. Don't let that slow your ability to think and adapt.

 

[lineflyer1]

Thats up to the crew. They should understand the aircraft and its expected performance and make the decision ased on that information.

When I had my little event, I asked the FO to Feather/Cutoff the engines just prior to when he felt we were going to touchdown. If the aircraft is in the flare and slowing, induced drag is increasing exponentially. Feathering at this time will not cause the aircraft to float as much as you might think. We used battery power to run the hydraulic pumps off the battery (standby power) to slow the aircraft once aerodynamic braking was nil. When we came to a complete stop, we initiated the QRH for emergency evacuation. We also picked the runway and airport with the least x-wind. We ended up landing 31 while the rest of the airport was using 9L/R (KFLL).

This is untrue. I am being throw hypothetical situations in attept to be disproven on FAA supported primary training techniques. Also, people are insisting that I am straying from the QRH, when I am not. What I am talking about has nothing to do with the QRH.

Not if what they did was intended for increasing the level of safety during the outcome of the situation.

What if your F/O screwed up and only shutdown and feathered one of them or one was slower to feather then the other and you had gotten assymetrical drag causing severe yaw in the critical phase of landing?

You are looking to add problems to an already bad situation.

 

[The_Russian]

Primary hydralics are primarily engine driven and electric or a combination of thereof. Standbys are in some turbo props battery bus. I belive the Dork was like this, but it's been awhile. Total loss of fluid, and the backup for that in regards to braking is accumulators.

Absolutely correct.

 

[The_Russian]

What if your F/O screwed up and only shutdown and feathered one of them or one was slower to feather then the other and you had gotten assymetrical drag causing severe yaw in the critical phase of landing?

You are looking to add problems to an already bad situation.

That's my last worry. My crew is properly briefed when things go wrong, and I insist on clear communication. One prop would not feather slow enough to cause an asymetrical load. That would require a control or mechanical failure. Most props fail to feather anyway, and the following fuel shutoff would feather the prop.

Stop throwing hypotheticals. They wont help the discussion. There will always be a hypothetical to counter your hypothetical. It is best to stick to the staight facts.