Think SkyBus is the only one to blame?

[whymeworry?]

Why I do agree that these "low cost, no pay airlines" are a bad thing, I do disagree that it is all the fault of these pilots.

Why not put the blame on the existing airlines for not hiring these pilots. I am assuming that most of these captains would be qualified to fly at FedEx, UPS, or SWA....but for one reason or another, they have been either turned down or not interviewed. How can a I-Air A319 check airman not be good enough for one of these other jobs. WE ARE OUR OWN WORST ENEMY.

I remember when UAL was in full hiring mode, one of my co-workers was sent out the door before the interview even started because his "second in command" time didnt add up correctly. This was a guy with 18 yrs of airline flying, and 15 yrs as captain. He obviously wasnt qualified but the guy with 2 yrs as an FO was.

I am not bashing the low time guys, but the hiring practices of the airlines.

Now these guys find themselves on the street due to bad management, and since the better paying jobs find them "unqualified" they got to do what they got to do.

If the airlines that were hiring would hire these qualified pilots (you know "protect your own"), these start-ups wouldnt get qualified pilots.

skiandsurf,

I wholeheartedly agree. I have this debate with many captians I fly with. Some believe we should hire only the best, others treat our airline as their own personal flying club and want to see the standards lowered in order to get their buddies or their kids on board. Whatever the case may be, fact is line pukes like us have never really had a say in who our airlines hire. Well, occasionally we get a say but usually this is after our unions approach mgmt about it and for the past 5 years our unions have been pre-occupied with trying to save our contracts.

But yes, you are absolutely correct in that the majors do share blame in this and the pilots of those majors ought to stop ignoring this fact.

 

[whymeworry?]

While I agree that the pay at Skybus is ridiculous, I just want to make sure we all understand that when you flew ATRs and ERJs you did it for a wage that elevated the careers of all your fellow aviators...say $40-45K to start, right? Otherwise the word 'hypocricy' springs to mind.

Actually, no, I made $65K flying the ATR in my worst year and $125K flying the RJ in my best year... believe it or not.

ATRs and RJs are regional industry aircraft and as such a stepping stone application to our career (no offense to our fellow RJ pilots, I respect you guys, really) in the majors. The airbus is the starter airframe in the major industry, hence my disgust. RJ pilots will not be immune to this kind of an onslaught in salaries if it were to remain... as they say, ******************** rolls down hill.

Your rebuttal is apples to oranges. Lets compare apples to apples here.

 

[skiandsurf]

Gee.... Skybus or CAL. If a guys really think Skybus is the better option then I'm glad he goes there, we don't need pilots like that at CAL. First year pay at all majors sucks, and I agree we need to change this. But for now, it's part of the business to suck it up for that first year then reclaw your way up the seniority list and pay scales; which is why one needs to stay lean until he or she is on with a major.

When one has put in 10-20 at one carrier, do you want them to stay "lean" the whole time, even when things are looking like the final job?

Lets see.....Yr 1.... $65,000 (+ worthless stocks, that might go up)
2.....$75,000
3.....$85,000
+ ----------------
$225,000

CAL Yr 1....$27,000
Yr 2....$50,000
Yr 3....$60,000
+------------------
$137,000

If the guy is up there in age, you got to go for the money today, not in 15-20 yrs.

( all numbers are made up, as I dont know what the numbers are for either company)

 

[whymeworry?]

whymeworry,
The problem is that Wall Street is willing to dump a couple hundred mill into startups. Until we have a few more Independence Air stories and a few less JetBlue stories, the money will continue to pour in.
And with the current pilot labor market, it's pretty easy to find someone who's willing to whore themselves out for peanuts. This trend will continue.

Absolutely correct. Which is yet another reason why I have ZERO sympathy for creditors and shareholders of this industry. They give managements the balnk check then complain when their left holding the bag.

Some have speculated that the ATA is funding Skybus in an effort to thwart any upward move by the unions of Legacy carriers.

 

[Ex737Driver]

Gee.... Skybus or CAL. If a guys really think Skybus is the better option then I'm glad he goes there, we don't need pilots like that at CAL. First year pay at all majors sucks, and I agree we need to change this. But for now, it's part of the business to suck it up for that first year then reclaw your way up the seniority list and pay scales; which is why one needs to stay lean until he or she is on with a major.

I agree but first year pay at Fedex, Delta, Southwest, Airtran, and others all appear to make the rest for the industy look somewhat lame for 1st year pay.
For CAL, contract '08 is our opportuinty to change 1st year pay as well as hundreds of other concessionary items.

 

[whymeworry?]

When one has put in 10-20 at one carrier, do you want them to stay "lean" the whole time, even when things are looking like the final job?

Lets see.....Yr 1.... $65,000 (+ worthless stocks, that might go up)
2.....$75,000
3.....$85,000
+ ----------------
$225,000

CAL Yr 1....$27,000
Yr 2....$50,000
Yr 3....$60,000
+------------------
$137,000

If the guy is up there in age, you got to go for the money today, not in 15-20 yrs.

( all numbers are made up, as I dont know what the numbers are for either company)

The problem is your numbers are incorrect.

Yr 2 at CAL is more like $75,000, Yr 3 $90,000 IF YOU WORK FOR IT...meaning fly a lot.

I'm not defending CALs contract, it's a POS no doubt. But CAL is flying under a concessionary deal that was orchestrated by a now fired MEC. We've got new blood turning our union around now and Contract '08 will change things.

Tell me again why you are definding the decision of those who want to go to Skybus?

 

[whymeworry?]

I agree but first year pay at Fedex, Delta, Southwest, Airtran, and others all appear to make the rest for the industy look somewhat lame for 1st year pay.
For CAL, contract '08 is our opportuinty to change 1st year pay as well as hundreds of other concessionary items.

AGREED!

 

[skiandsurf]

Tell me again why you are definding the decision of those who want to go to Skybus?

I am NOT defending these pilots.
I am just trying to show why pilots go there....its because they cant afford to work for close to nothing. If a guy is young, with no family to support, sure, get on with a carrier that will have the bigger payday down the road. If the guy is older, with a family, it is tough to work for these low wages that you negotiated. If you have kids, you know how important it is to have insurance, yet CAL denies their newhire pilots this basic requirement.

Pilots (and unions) have worked very hard to make the senior pilots a big money earner, while screwing the new guy. If a guy gets hired at most airlines at the age of 40, it is very unlikely to see that BIG money.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Having flown for a second tier company for a while prior to being hired by United, the answer was clear to me. A lot (and I can't emphasize that enough) of the pilots who were rejected by the majors had checkered pasts. Those that didn't have checkered pasts eventually moved on to the majors. Sure, there were a few who stayed by choice. A very few.

As for your coworker who was sent out the door, it's clear that both you and he didn't know the ground rules for an interview at United (and every other major; it's just that United gets the bad rap for calling guys on this). The first hurdle was correct logbooks. You may not like it, but that's the way the game is played. I spent a week with my calculator and logbooks before every interview that I had. And logbooks are just the start of an interview prep.

A startup will always find qualified pilots. Quality pilots is another story.

Seem's the startups are no different than say, the average Air Force KC 135 Squadron in their inability to attract "quality" pilots." Reading your post makes me more fully understand why you United guys and gals are referred to as "brain surgeons"...


PHXFLYR

 

[starchkr]

Skiandsurf...your numbers are flawed...Skybus does not start out paying 65K...maybe the first few captains that were hired made that, but now they no-longer hire street captains, so your numbers must start out correctly and show 30K as year one. I mean heck, you are trying to compare f/o's to f/o's right, and not captains to f/o's...because if you did compare captains to f/o's, there would never be any comparison. So in all reality, first year SB or CAL is the same...now who goes up faster? I would bet anything that CAL moves much faster.