Think SkyBus is the only one to blame?

[whymeworry?]

Look at the payscales of MaxJet and Virgin:

Maxipad: $90K/ yr captains.

Virgin: $95/ hr Capt..... F/Os that upgrade to new captains go back to 1 yr. payscale. 5-day block for vacation. Whoopie!

Both are applying for CASS. Good luck getting a jumpseat. Virgin guys, you're going to need the JS cause you'll never survive in the Bay Area on that kind of pay.

Great... nice job guys. Let's start publishing a list of these aviation-industry terrorists and watch while our careers get flushed down the toilet. Then at least we'll know who is to blame.

Who are these clowns that sign up to be away from home most of their lives for such abysmal pay? While I'll agree flying is a great career, it's not worth being away from your kids as they grow up unless offset by a minimum amount of pay... these rates certainly don't come anywhere close to the min amount.

Their families must really love them (NOT!).

 

[skiandsurf]

Why I do agree that these "low cost, no pay airlines" are a bad thing, I do disagree that it is all the fault of these pilots.

Why not put the blame on the existing airlines for not hiring these pilots. I am assuming that most of these captains would be qualified to fly at FedEx, UPS, or SWA....but for one reason or another, they have been either turned down or not interviewed. How can a I-Air A319 check airman not be good enough for one of these other jobs. WE ARE OUR OWN WORST ENEMY.

I remember when UAL was in full hiring mode, one of my co-workers was sent out the door before the interview even started because his "second in command" time didnt add up correctly. This was a guy with 18 yrs of airline flying, and 15 yrs as captain. He obviously wasnt qualified but the guy with 2 yrs as an FO was.

I am not bashing the low time guys, but the hiring practices of the airlines.

Now these guys find themselves on the street due to bad management, and since the better paying jobs find them "unqualified" they got to do what they got to do.

If the airlines that were hiring would hire these qualified pilots (you know "protect your own"), these start-ups wouldnt get qualified pilots.

 

[Andy]

Why not put the blame on the existing airlines for not hiring these pilots. I am assuming that most of these captains would be qualified to fly at FedEx, UPS, or SWA....but for one reason or another, they have been either turned down or not interviewed. How can a I-Air A319 check airman not be good enough for one of these other jobs. WE ARE OUR OWN WORST ENEMY.

I remember when UAL was in full hiring mode, one of my co-workers was sent out the door before the interview even started because his "second in command" time didnt add up correctly. This was a guy with 18 yrs of airline flying, and 15 yrs as captain. He obviously wasnt qualified but the guy with 2 yrs as an FO was.

If the airlines that were hiring would hire these qualified pilots (you know "protect your own"), these start-ups wouldnt get qualified pilots.

Having flown for a second tier company for a while prior to being hired by United, the answer was clear to me. A lot (and I can't emphasize that enough) of the pilots who were rejected by the majors had checkered pasts. Those that didn't have checkered pasts eventually moved on to the majors. Sure, there were a few who stayed by choice. A very few.

As for your coworker who was sent out the door, it's clear that both you and he didn't know the ground rules for an interview at United (and every other major; it's just that United gets the bad rap for calling guys on this). The first hurdle was correct logbooks. You may not like it, but that's the way the game is played. I spent a week with my calculator and logbooks before every interview that I had. And logbooks are just the start of an interview prep.

A startup will always find qualified pilots. Quality pilots is another story.

 

[Andy]

whymeworry,
The problem is that Wall Street is willing to dump a couple hundred mill into startups. Until we have a few more Independence Air stories and a few less JetBlue stories, the money will continue to pour in.
And with the current pilot labor market, it's pretty easy to find someone who's willing to whore themselves out for peanuts. This trend will continue.

 

[skiandsurf]

I spent a week with my calculator and logbooks before every interview that I had. And logbooks are just the start of an interview prep.

Sure its easy to check your math when you have a couple of thousand hours, but when you have 15,000 (or more) hours, there is a better chance of a mistake.

 

[skiandsurf]

whymeworry,
it's pretty easy to find someone who's willing to whore themselves out for peanuts. This trend will continue.

Again, I dont mean to defend these guys, rather point out how bad this industry is.

A pilot that was an A319 captain at I-Air, can go to work at CAL and make $27,000 or go to Skybus and make $65,000. Which one is the whore?

Face it, this is the most screwed up industry, pay wise, and until there is a fix, there will always be these "low cost" startups taking advantage of the system.

(no I dont work there, and am not trying to work there)

 

[XShuttle]

If United could figure out in 10 minutes that your logbook doesn't add up why can't a pilot with 15,000 hours figure it out when he has months to prepare for an interview? With 15,000 hours why has he not interviewed/been hired by DAL/SWA/AA/FED/UPS/NWA/LCA years ago?

 

[SoCentralRain]

Sure its easy to check your math when you have a couple of thousand hours, but when you have 15,000 (or more) hours, there is a better chance of a mistake.

Do it anyway. How badly did he really want the job?

 

[Andy]

A pilot that was an A319 captain at I-Air, can go to work at CAL and make $27,000 or go to Skybus and make $65,000. Which one is the whore?

Face it, this is the most screwed up industry, pay wise, and until there is a fix, there will always be these "low cost" startups taking advantage of the system.

For the starting salaries, that's all part of the rules of the game. I know it's hard to take a big pay cut.
When I left the AF, I was making the taxable equivalent of >$100K/yr. When I went to the first carrier that I flew for (on the airbus) as an FO, I made $40K/yr. I left there after 9 months and went to United where I was paid ~$25K/yr. With contract 2000, I jumped back up to $40K/yr. When I got furloughed from United in 2002, I was making $75K/yr.
Anyone surprised by how the payscales work has not done their homework.

Pilot pay is irrelevent for startups; they will pay as little as they can get away with, but that's not their major expense. As long as they can attract newhires for a bit less than the established carriers, they will have a CASM advantage.
Startups will continue as long as investors think that they can make money. Independence Air had $330 mil in the bank when they started. Had anyone done a quick analysis of the company, they would have seen that I-Air was destined to fail .... they were unable to shed their RJs fast enough and their revenue structure did not support operating those high CASM RJs. Had they dumped those RJs quickly, they would still be around.
I find Skybus to be an interesting experiment. I doubt that they can make it out of Columbus, but companies there have given them a lot of the startup capital. It will be enough for Skybus to operate for several years.

I hope that I'm not confrontational in posts; it's not my intent. I'm merely giving you my perspective of the industry.

 

[bgaviator]

I think there are certain factors why pilots would take a job at a company like Skybus. #1. They may have ties to the Columbus area....family, friends, houses, etc. etc. #2 (and probably most important) These pilots are getting in on the ground floor. Not too many times in your career can you say that...and if Skybus does get big, these guys are #1 seniority with the best schedules, pay, and clout at the company.