Things airline recruiters have done wrong

[mar]

I have a hunch. My gut tells me the pitiful job market has bottomed out. In other words, I think things are about to get better.

Before anyone trounces my optimism I'll admit that I know that American Airlines has announced another furlough. I also realize that another bankruptcy looms around the corner. And that's not all. Another terrorist attack is regarded not just as a possibility but more like an inevitability.

Nevertheless, my friends, there are rumblings from deep within the bowels of airline recruiter's offices--mostly freight.

I take this as a sign. I think it's a sign of a rebounding economy. Maybe that economy isn't American but that doesn't mean it can't be good for us.

So, as I've ridden a couple hiring waves in my short career I'm encouraged to report that I have a hunch that says, Shine your shoes and get a haircut because the games will begin shortly.

And this brings me to my point, finally...

Do you remember several years ago when the hiring was going strong but perfectly good pilots were being rejected from airlines because of ridiculous criteria?

Let's use this thread (albeit according to PilotYip probably two to three years too early) to point out the errors of airline recruiters in the hope of stopping the madness of psychological tests, confrontational interviews, application fees and absurd sim profiles.

I'll start with my favorites:

--Psychological Tests: Why? These are just an added expense and besides what better psychological test is there for being a pilot than slugging it out in a piston twin at night over the mountains or coming from a military background. Doesn't that say enough? Not only that, but we all visit a health professional every six months to a year. There are plenty of other effective screens to filter out pilots with learning disabilities (if you believe these actually exist) and/or various mental disorders.

--Confrontational Interviews: Why? Do you want to get to know us or not? I know, I know, it's just another test to see how bad we really want the job. Unfortunately the result is a class of phonies who have lied to you.

--Application Fees: Why? Oh I forgot, it's a scam to make money off of hungry ambitious pilots. Sick.

--Absurd Sim Profiles: Why? Why especially when the gouge is on the internet and any nerd with a credit card can go buy the sim time and practice until he's got it right or he maxes out his credit card? What does that tell you about his skill or ability to learn quickly? Nothing! Try this instead: Teach the applicant a lesson in the sim based on his experience level. Look for objective criteria such as steady improvement, ability to control airspeed, altitude and heading and solid IFR procedures. If you conduct the same profile for each applicant the only thing you're testing is their credit limit and ability to memorize---Great! That's who I want to fly with...

...what else?...

--Speaking of absurdity: Stop asking questions like, Why do you want to work for ABC and not XYZ. Stop asking us which company value we most associate with. Stop asking us if we've ever broken a regulation or what would we do in the dumbest hypothetical situation. I say again, Do you want to get to know us or not? Don't you understand you're begging us to LIE to you? But simultaneously you'll say, Just relax and be yourself.

Well, which is it? 'Cause I ain't telling you the truth. There are some stories I only tell my closest friends and that's only after an awful lot of whisky.

--Irrelevent questions: If you ask me technical questions about operations that you know I have no experience with then you're just testing my ability to memorize again. Try asking questions about *my* airplane and *my* operations. Then you can gauge the depth of *my* experience and knowledge. Why do I need to know about Mach Tuck and Mach Trim and Deep Stall if I fly a DC6? Sure I can study it and regurgitate the information but what does that say about me? Nothing! Ask me about control tabs! Water injection! Pressurized Carburetors! Then you'll find out what I'm made of.

--Silly Hoops to Jump Thru: Why? Attend this conference...email your resume in this format...join this service...write an essay...Why? Why, I ask? Why can't I just send you a resume, possibly with a recommendation attatched, and if I'm qualified you call me. Almost every other industry does it like that. Which brings me to the oh-so-coveted "Recommendation."

--The Recommendation: This is a double edged sword for everyone. Some airlines use this tool better than others. Let's look at it. A good recommendation says, "I've personally flown with this guy, I know he's a good stick and a great guy, I think he'd fit in really well and do a great job." A bad (in the sense it hurts the hiring process) recommendation says, "This guy is the nephew of my cousin's husband who helped get me a job once so I owe him a favor so I'm gonna forward his stuff 'cause he meets the mins." Believe me, I'm not against recommendations but I am against shortcuts and favoritism.

Well that should get us started. Feel free to contribute what you think is wrong with airline recruitment, selection, hiring and retention

Airline retention. That could be a whole thread all by itself.

 

[avoidingmyboss]

This is off the beaten path MAR but these are a few things that bug me besides all the silly things recruiters do. Let's start with the PFT’s and crooked flight schools which is one of the same IMOP. Nothing like setting up shop in a town and getting some suckers to plop down their hard earned cash on block time then skipping town. The same applies for the PFT’er

Then there’s the guy that will hire you to fly and all you do is wash his airplanes and pump fuel. When you’ve had enough hell hit you with a training fee to try to get you to stay. He’ll tell you if you don’t pay it you’ll never get a job because you’ll never get a good recommendation. And by the way he is always late with your pay and always shorts you by a few bucks.

Oh yeah lets not forget “I always wanted to fly guy.” This guy is in his mid 40’s and is always hanging around wanting to fly for less money. Because “it’s fun.” And he'll say crap like this “your lucky to have a job like that.” HEY $HITHEAD THIS IS A JOB FOR MANY OF US. WE WOULD LIKE TO MAKE A DECENT WAGE AND RAISE FAMILES AND BUY HOMES. IF YOU WANT TO FLY GO OUT GET ALL YOUR RATINGS TAKE A JOB AS A CFI. HAVE SOME NUMB SKULL TRY TO KILL YOU FOR 8 HOURS A DAY IN –30 DEGREE WX OR 98 F IN THE SUMMER. ONCE YOU HIT 1200 HRS GET A JOB IN AN A/C THAT’S OLDER THAN YOU, PUTZ AROUND IN THE ICE AND THUNDERSTORMS AWHILE THEN GET A JOB WITH A RAISE MIND YOU MAKING $18,000/ YR.

A recruiter once asked me “ So why do you want to work for XYZ airlines” I was sure I wasn’t getting the job so I let him have it, the truth “so I can bang disgruntled flight attendants and make $18,000/yr.” I told him I was killing two birds with one stone because that’s why I became a pilot too. I guess the joke is on me.

When I go to work I see “I always wanted to fly guy” who always telling “washes airplane guy” how good he has it. “Washes airplane guy” is always complaining about the rich PFT’er taking his job. The PFT’er is always complaining about all the silly questions the recruiter is asking. I wonder who he recruiter likes best.

 

[bafanguy]

Mar,


I couldn't agree more ! What you describe is nothing more than corporate empire building and bureaucracy carried out by people who don't know that the pointy end goes in the front. Of course, management "pilots" are up to their eyeballs in this process because that's how they avoid having to soil their hands by strapping into an airplane. Being a "pilot" is enough of a management career killer without actually having to BE a pilot.

I've seen Delta turn down the best imaginable people for the worst imaginable reasons. If they're going to play God with people's lives, at least let it be for solid reasons.

But, the main function of bureaucracy is to grow more bureaucracy...you know, like cancer.

 

[TurboS7]

Avoiding my boss---If I was a recruiter I would have hired you right away, then I would have sent you to our disgruntled FA's, you would be earning your keep......LOL.

 

[Snakum]

If I was a recruiter I would have hired you right away, then I would have sent you to our disgruntled FA's, you would be earning your keep

LMAO!

 

[coolyokeluke]

MAR I agree. You work for NAC or Big Ace? I'm on the same field.

I think the companies that got it right interview for attitude, look at experience for aptitude and then expect to train to their standards.

I don't like arbitrary requirements like 20000 lb aircraft (JetBlue). Maybe because what I'm flying is on the wrong side of their requirement.

 

[pilotyip]

Why we do it

Having been involved in interviewing for 7 years here, we have come up with a successful applicant profile. To find out if a candidate fits that profile, we probe, ask questions, have you take a phys profile test, give math tests, FAR tests, and have you fly a sim. We take you to lunch and see what you talk about over lunch. We make you sell yourself to us; we try to talk you out of coming to work here. We hired based upon #1 criteria can you fly an airplane? Will this candidate have the ability to make Captain someday? Most people can, but will they be a good employee? Next, we look at could I stand being around this person for five days in a row, and lastly what is this candidates likely hood of making a career at USA Jet? We charge a fee to apply; it eliminates shoppers who are not serious about making commitment to intervew. We try to match candidates to successful pilots we have hired in the past, who also took all the tests. They turned out good, so there is a good chance the candidate will also. It all must work we are getting dynamite new hires right now.

 

[jetexas]

I think one thing recruiters have done wrong (in general, especially at majors) is to not look at what 'made' the pilot. At least on applications there appears to be a tendency to look at things like flight time, education, etc without taking into account 'how' the person got there.
If I was hiring I would much rather hire someone who is 'self made' and may have less flight time, lower GPA in college, older, etc than someone who was helped along by the parental wallet, etc.

 

[xdays]

We charge a fee to apply; it eliminates shoppers who are not serious about making commitment to intervew.

Do you refund the application fee to those you hire?? Seems only fair to me.

 

[pilotyip]

In a way we repay them

We start them at what I believe is the highest F/O starting salary in the 135 on-demand business. $33K/yr first year. So there is kind of a repayment in sense by the starting guarentee. Recruiting costs are a burden to all companies, both in man-hours to administer and actual cost of interviewing non-qualified individuals, and our company is no different. We are in a tuff business climate right now and have to everything we can do to control costs. We have contracted to an outside company, HRPQ, to do our screening for us, much like we do for engine overhauls, wet ditching, etc. HRPQ is in business to make money; they charge a fee for that service, the money does not go to us. Our pool is full at the present time and our turnover is very low so something must be working with our process.

 

[xdays]

We start them at what I believe is the highest F/O starting salary in the 135 on-demand business. $33K/yr first year. So there is kind of a repayment in sense by the starting guarentee. Recruiting costs are a burden to all companies, both in man-hours to administer and actual cost of interviewing non-qualified individuals, and our company is no different. We are in a tuff business climate right now and have to everything we can do to control costs. We have contracted to an outside company, HRPQ, to do our screening for us, much like we do for engine overhauls, wet ditching, etc. HRPQ is in business to make money; they charge a fee for that service, the money does not go to us. Our pool is full at the present time and our turnover is very low so something must be working with our process.

Kudos to your company for setting the bar high for 135 f/o salaries. I only commented because you had stated the app fee, "eliminates shoppers who are not serious about making commitment to intervew (sp)". Recruiting costs are indeed a burden to a company, as is any cost. It is also known as a cost of doing business. My personal opinion is that people should not be charged for applying for a job. Contrary to all that, it does appear as if you guys are going a great job in your hiring and as a former 135 guy, best of luck to your continued success.

 

[mar]

Thanks to everyone for the replies.

And the rest of you are pathetic.

This thread was started to air out all of the BS before the hiring begins again. It's in everyone's best interest to be treated respectfully and professionally.

But I suppose ya'all (christ I've gone redneck) would rather piss and moan about the election, eh?

Why hasn't one person mentioned the effect of affirmative action in airline hiring?

Let me guess, my original post was too long for the short attention spans of our Headline News/Ticker Tape culture.

We'd much rather take pot shots at one another than stick together and better our collective situation.

It's your life; your career. Wallow in it if you like.

 

[bafanguy]

Mar,


I thought affirmative action had been covered already in previous posts...

 

[FarginDooshbahg]

And the rest of you are pathetic.

So I guess your definition of "pathetic" is anyone who doesn't walk, talk, look, act or think like YOU. Yessiree, that's MY definition of pathetic. But evidently, it fits YOU to a T.

Also, bafanguy is correct. It has been covered in previous posts. Ad nauseum.

 

[mar]

Good points.

That was just my version of flame bait.

 

[DIAMONDDD]

I liked the book "Moondogs Flying Academy and Other Air Disasters". In it, the author talks about going to an interview with DAL. The interviewers led him into a room with a rocking chair and he said "Oh how fun, I love rocking chairs" or something like that. Very funny stuff.

 

[FarginDooshbahg]

That was just my version of flame bait.

Then good job and well done, my man.

 

[mar]

I'm no one's fool

Then good job and well done, my man.

If you wanna move something up front all ya gotta be is a little louder than the rest and use some provocative language a la Jerry Springer.

Works everytime.

"Moondogs Flying Academy..." is on my reading list. One day I'll ditch this computer and pick up a book again...

 

[bafanguy]

I think the shrink with the rocking chair in the Delta interviews committed suicide eventually. I actually didn't interview with this guy personally, but with his partner. No rocking chair but one very weird dude.


When I walked in the room, the first thing he said to me was, "My, you're a tall one." Subsequent comments included, "You're a better speller than the others...Where did you go to college ?" All I did in this portion of the interview was look at this man with a blank expression and answer in words of one syllable.

When I got back to the quonset hut that passed for an office at DAL GO, the HR guy, if you can call him that, said, "Well, you work for an airline so you probably understand the benefits." "Yuh huh", says I.

Then I go to another quonset hut for the flt ops interview. I go into the outer office and the secretary waves me through an open door. Inside is an absolutely ancient guy whose crutches are leaning againt the wall. He doesn't even look up from his desk. I stand silently; I am getting uneasy.

He says to me(without looking up from the desk), "What ya been flying ?" "737's", says I. He: "You'll be hearing from us in a couple of weeks." I turn and leave without even sitting down. I figure this thing's a bust but the joke's on THEM...I didn't even wear a suit !!! I wore a sport coat cuz I didn't own a friggin' suit !!! HA...HA...HAAA

Two weeks later I was hired: another two weeks and I was sitting in class on Virginia Ave. When I read about what you poor b@stards do now to get a job, my heart goes out to you. The only thing that comes to mind: ORGAN GRINDER'S MONKEY.

30 years, 6 months later, I retired almost 4 years early.

Everything Mar said is true...and so is what I said. Sad, huh ?

 

[A Squared]

Why hasn't one person mentioned the effect of affirmative action in airline hiring?

Do you really want to get me going on Affimative Action?

"Moondogs Flying Academy..." is on my reading list. One day I'll ditch this computer and pick up a book again...

I'll loan you my copy ... but then, you never read the last book that was loaned to you.....

 

[bafanguy]

Who wrote "Moondogs Flying Academy" and is it in print ?

 

[A Squared]

Who wrote "Moondogs Flying Academy" and is it in print ?

It's actually "Moondogs Academy of the Air and Other Disasters"

It's writen by Peter Fusco and it's still in print. I got a copy a few months ago through Amazon.

 

[pilotyip]

Pete Ex-Zantop

another YIP cargo dog makes good

 

[mar]

Pick yer words

Pilotyip--your economy with the English language is impressive.

I wish I could be as selective, but there are so many words to use and all of them just a little different.

But let me try for just a second: I admire your attitude towards payin' your dues in 135 freight and then moving on. You don't seem to hold it against the so-called 'time builder'. A lot of companies seem to almost approach cult status and when you leave you're looked down upon as one who just couldn't see the light and the beauty and The Way.

(I can't do it. I must type.)

Bafanguy--That's a great story. I bet you didn't even have a recommendation (not that you couldn't have one but you probably felt like you didn't need one because you had the background--737s--the skills, and the confidence to back up your initial application).

That is a dream of mine. To be hired for my background, skills and confidence.

Thanks for your contributions to this thread, board and industry!



AA--As usual, you my friend are correct. I didn't read the last book I was loaned. Let's just say I'm gonna leave that one hangin'. As for affirmative action I was just really surprised given the divisive nature of this board that that topic wasn't the *very* first pet peeve offered.

What can I say? I'm continually surprised.

 

[enigma]

mar, I'm short of time. I spent too much time at the PM site.

Oh well.

My short answer is that major airlines are major corporations and major corporations are PC. PC entities hire PC people to staff their HR departments. Those people tend to be young, single, females with college degrees in touchy-feelyness.

The hiring you saw at the last boom was a direct result of those "know-nothings" having too much input into the process.

regards,
enigma

 

[typhoonpilot]

Good thread Mar:

Having interviewed a lot I have my ideas of what is a good interview and what is a pointless, stupid HR style interview. Amazingly two of the " best " airlines right now have the later, Southwest and jetBlue. Give me a sim ride and and ask a few questions about my background and maybe a few tech/Jepp questions and I'm a happy man. Ask me when I had to intervene in an argument amongst crew and how everybody walked away happy and in love after said intervention and I'll fall flat on my face.

My best interview ever was with a non-sched in Nevada. A good friend and I walked in to the office on the Reno airport and chatted with the D.O. He was nice enough, telling us about the airline and how he may be looking for people in a few months. I kind of blew it off but my friend followed up and six months later he calls me and says that they are hiring one captain and two F.O.s He said he is one of the F.O.s and I'm the other. Now that is my kind of interview .

When we both left that airline a few years later the interview was with a foreign airline. The guys over from that airline couldn't speak English. They gave us a sim ride which was all NDB work with 25 to 35 knot crosswinds. NDB approach to a missed approach; hold at an NDB; another NDB approach. Great fun. It turns out the interview was relavent because we did a lot of non-precision approaches over there and often times down to minimums in gusty winds. Thus the origin of my name.

So, tell us about a time that you had a passenger complain and what you did about it ? = I told him to shut the fu** up and get off my airplane. Isn't that what we all want to say ?


Typhoonpilot

 

[bobbysamd]

Do you remember several years ago when the hiring was going strong but perfectly good pilots were being rejected from airlines because of ridiculous criteria?

You bet I do.

How about age discrimination? In the late '80s, I changed careers to aviation. No, I was not one of those 40-somethings referenced above who would work for less than others because flying was something I had always wanted to do; I was willing to accept the same sh!tty money paid to everyone at the beginning. At any rate, by the time I was 40 and had built enough time to warrant interviews I had received few responses. However, my much-younger colleagues were being interviewed and hired by the same companies to which I had applied and updated but had heard nothing. Credentials were essentially similar. Flight instructing was our only professional experience. I might have had more time, more multi and my ATP. We were all college graduates. The only difference was they were 25 or younger and I was 40.

The regionals in question include but are not limited to SkyWest, Horizon, GP-Express and Scenic. I kept materials flowing to SkyWest, GP-Express and Scenic for six years, and to Horizon for at least two years. Horizon hired a number of my (25-and-under) colleagues and SkyWest hired at least two of them; one being an ex-student. She walked in materials for me and I still was not called.

I did have interviews elsewhere but was not hired. People here have opined that I do not or had not interviewed well. Perhaps - but I have worked since I've been 14, so I must have interviewed succesfully somewhere. I would say that I had a hostile interviewer for at least two of my five airline interviews. Even so, people can interview well and not be hired - and people have bad interviews and are still hired.

One theory I heard was that recruiters figure an older person would not accept the same low pay a younger person would accept. That concern could have been easily cleared up at the interview. And, here again, my answer would have been "yes," but I did not get the chance to say it.

Another theory is that recruiters figure that younger people will stay at their regional only long enough to build enough time to qualify for the majors, while an older person will stay, top out at scale, and vest in the retirement program, both of which will cost them money. So much for what people told me back then and now, that my being older would be an asset because I offered stability and maturity.

For these reasons, I feel that age discrimination is one of the things airline recruiters do wrong (illegally) to justify rejection of perfectly good pilots. I like how it was said above about how pilot recruiters play G-d with people's lives by way of their moronic (and illegal) practices.

Finally, every time I raise age discrimination I am flamed. Fine. Bring it on. But, first, look through this thread from several months ago where I make a prima facie case proving age discrimination using my experiences, experiences of others, legal authority and expert opinion.

 

[bobbysamd]

Airline HR quals

My short answer is that major airlines are major corporations and major corporations are PC. PC entities hire PC people to staff their HR departments. Those people tend to be young, single, females with college degrees in touchy-feelyness.

You forgot four additional, vital qualifications. They have to have no feel for pilots and people. They have to possess tunnel vision; ability to fit round pegs into square holes is grounds for dismissal. They have to be airheads. They have to be morons.

 

[Swede]

Very interesting thread. I did the Delta interview with Son-of-rocking-chair. The entire Delta interview was warped and Gothic. I never felt at ease. No smiles, no "How's it going?" The facilities were old and grim. I left feeling like it went badly. On the flight home, I talked quite a bit with the crew who were fun, wonderful people, and I wanted very much to get the job, but did not.

I then went to AA. Say want you want about AMR's corporate culture, the interview process was a delight. The bulk of the "analysis" was done by a small group of retired Captains with vast experience. They checked my logs, and for an hour simply shot the breeze. Their job was to make sure of two things - that the credentials I brought to the table were authentic, and given that, was I the kind of guy who they could fly a trip with for three days and not have a fistfight at some point. They looked through my log, and found topics of conversation based upon my background. "So you were a glider instructor? Wow I flew a Blanik a few years ago, it was great!" Then we'd talk soaring for 10 minutes. I felt comfortable talking shop right away.

In the sim (KC135), having never flown heavies, the SIM-IP put me at ease, saying "We're just looking for an instrument cross-check. We know you don't know how to fly a 707".

Anyway, that's the environment you get in an interview when regular line pilots are involved instead of Jung and Maslow wannabees. No offense to Delta which has a great bunch of pilots and flight attendants.