The White House sweet talkin the unions

[Freddie Spencer]

Nice Move...

WASHINGTON — Education Secretary Rod Paige called the nation's largest teachers union a "terrorist organization" Monday, taking on the 2.7-million-member National Education Association (search) early in the presidential election year.

Paige's comments, made to the nation's governors at a private White House meeting, were denounced by union president Reg Weaver (search) as well as prominent Democrats.

White House said he was right to say so

 

[homerjdispatch]

He is right on!

 

[bart]

The NEA are worse than terrorists.

At least the terrorists own up to wanting to destroy America.

The NEA has been holding children hostage to keep complete idiots in order to keep the money flowing to their incompetent (for the most part) members.

I have no use for them.

Teachers are great, however, the NEA discourages their existence in favor of intellectual bureaucrats that only know how to spend incredible amounts of money to generate studies that show they need more money for worthless programs.

 

[mar]

Frump, frump....

Yeah, well, nobody said life was fair, now did they?

Ya ever had a good day Bart?

How about a nice flight?

Ever had one of those?

Why don'tcha tell us about one for a change.

[Edited for syntax and punctuation. Skills I learned in the California public school system.]

 

[bart]

Every day is a great day Mar. Good flights outnumber the bad 100 to 1.

And no life is not fair, but it would be nice if most of our kids started out life with an education that gave them an advantage as opposed to a disadvantage vs. their competition in the world.

That doesn't change the fact that the NEA is responsible for most if not all that is wrong with government education. And continues to use threats and intimidation on its own reformers to get them quiet.

 

[B1900DFO]

Yeah those darn teachers. Buch of overpaid, underworked, lazy, good-for-nothings. Nothing more than a bunch of glorified nannies. They should just be happy they have a job.




Bart-

Struck a nerve huh? I wouldn't call the majority of 2.7 million teachers and educators incompetent. I don't know where you went to school but some of the most influential people in my life were high school teachers and I know they deserved a hell of a lot more than 35-45k/year. For your information countries that kick our butt in education and test scores like Japan pay their teachers extremely well and the job is one of their most respected ones.

In the US a teaching job is a huge sacrifice and most of them do it because they have a passion for teaching. Many teachers can't even afford to live in the communities in which they teach. Bart, you are one bitter dude!

 

[B1900DFO]

A question for you guys. If that is the white house stance on union members in the teaching profession how do you think they regard pilots behind closed doors???? Try to put politics aside and just think this one over. I'm not even talking about the 777 Dal captain making 350k. What about the comair captain making 100k when a MAA captain will fly the same plane for a maximum salary of 58k?

Apparently they find teachers, who are notoriously underpaid and are responsible for our childrens education, to be a buch of terrorists when it comes to collective bargaining. What would they say about a bunch of pilots who demand good wages and do nothing more than fly passengers around?

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Buch of overpaid, underworked, lazy, good-for-nothings. Nothing more than a bunch of glorified nannies. They should just be happy they have a job.

I think we've all been described as that lately.

 

[B1900DFO]

No matter how little you make somebody will always want to cut your pay. Just to be clear I was being sarcastic in that earlier post. I think teachers are woefully underpaid and treated like crap in this country.

 

[bart]

B1900 DFO,

Pay close attention, as you took what I said completely wrong.

Which is how most from the reactionary left deal with criticism of their hallowed belief of the piety of all unions.

The teachers in the classroom are NOT the problem.

Some of them are, but in general that is not the case.

It is the administrators and endless ranks of education bureaucrats that constitute the problem. They are overpaid, and in the end create no value in the system.

They are also the backbone of the NEA's powerbase, and they know they are worthless, which is why they fight so tough politically.

Again, I have no problem with teachers... they in general do the lions share of the work in the system and have little to show for it.

But the NEA and the bureaucrats they really represent are to blame for alot of problems.

If you don't believe this then explain the dramatic increases in education spending in the last ten years, versus the stagnation in teacher's wages.

 

[B1900DFO]

Bart-

OK now it's your turn to pay CLOSE ATTENTION. Ready. Here it is straight from your keyboard, "The NEA has been holding children hostage to keep complete idiots in order to keep the money flowing to their incompetent (for the most part) members."

That sentence belonged to you Bart and you stated that "for the most part" the membership is incompetent. Now the majority of the 2.7 million members are teachers. You referred to the majority as incompetent. Did you not write that? Maybe the moderator inserted that into your post? I would say that your behavior is typical of right wing politicians who target working Americans and then when somebody calls them on it they try to put a good spin on it (example: WH economist who said shipping jobs overseas was good trade).

 

[UpNDownGuy]

Now you've done it...

Don't confuse Bart with facts. He is entitled to hate everything and anybody the Republican Party tells him he should. Especially liberals, lefties, unions, gays, etc, etc....

 

[secks]

The main problem conservatives have with the NEA is that they are exclusively concerned with their members' benefits, regardless of the impact upon students. The NEA essentially exists to maintain the status quo: no educational standards, no educator testing, no school vouchers, etc.

Regarding pay. Teachers work 9 months out of the year, enjoy civil service benefits/retirement, generally work in a low-stress environment, and have the opportunity to work with young people. It's not as terrible as some would like you to think. Not every school exists in a ghetto, need I remind you? Sure, I'd like to see teachers earn more money, simply because higher wages attract better applicants. However, schools are still cranking out those Education Master's degrees, so the current compensation levels must be sufficient for many.

Bart's pretty much right on this, especially when he places the blame for our educational system squarely on the NEA. They serve teachers, not students. Fortunately, there are many affordable private schools which can deliver education the right way.

 

[bart]

1900,

You are right, I accuse those involved in our nations government schools of cooperating with politicians to make them an abject failure. No doubt about it, the situation is dismal and it happened on their watch. There are teachers who do a stellar job in spite of a system geared for failure. They are unfortunately not in the majority, when you count in all the worthless administrators and bureaucrats that have accounted for 65% of all new education hiring in the last ten years.

Name one initiative the NEA has backed that has improved government schools. I argue that number is zero.

Here are a few simple questions for you:

Do you not agree there are vast problems facing our government schools?

Has throwing money at the problems solved them? (Give an example)

What do schools have to fear from competition?

Why has the NEA fought any and all school reforms over the last 10 years?

In the end the NEA is just another dinosaur that has outlived its usefulness, and they darn well know it, which is why they fight so heavy handedly in Washington. They are a special interest that has no interest in children except that by holding them hostage they can wring more money out of the uninformed (spelled YOU).

I look forward to seeing your answers to the above questions.

 

[B1900DFO]

Of course they serve teachers!!! That is their primary function. Do you think the airline pilots association was founded to find ways to better serve the travelling public? Do you think that teachers do not deserve collective bargaining rights or an association that represents them? For god's sakes man. I can't believe you and bart are pilots.

NEA founded in 1857 to "promote the character and advance the interests of the profession of teaching......."


As for a low stress environment I don't know what you are talking about. I have several teachers in the family and I can assure you that when the bell rings at the end of the day the teacher's day is nowhere near over. Columbine is not in the ghetto but that didn't keep a couple of crazy kids from deciding to kill a bunch of people at school. Imagine yourself standing in front of six different classes of 14 year olds these days. Tough stuff. It's not a terrible job, but it isn't a walk in the park either. They definitely DO need an organization that stands up for their rights and benefits.

 

[B1900DFO]

by the way that last reply of mine was directed at Secks.

 

[Swass]

My children are in private schools, mostly because the NEA has destroyed the American public education system IMO.

I work with School Districts alot on EE Benefit issues and it is impossible to get the unions to do anything to change (upgrade benefits at a LOWER cost). I could've saved one school district over a quarter of a million dollars a year in health insurance premiums, you know what they did - they decided to keep the same policy in force for their teachers (which I wouldn't put my own family on). The price that the teachers would pay for coverage that far surpassed what they stayed with would have gone down significantly, helping bring the underpaid teachers more money to their families. $250,000 goes along way to help with updated classrooms, books etc. The teachers union said no way, tell me something isn't wrong with this picture.

I could cite example after example....

 

[B1900DFO]

Bart as for your post I don't know what NEA has done to further education. To tell you the truth I haven't thought much about the NEA in my 26 years. I doubt many teachers know what ALPA has done that was positive in the past besides fighting for pilot wages.

However, I do strongly believe that teachers need an organization that fights for their salaries, medical costs, retirment, etc because most people couldn't care less. Most people feel sorry for teachers having such poor wages but would sell them out in a heartbeat. I could spend the afternoon researching the NEA and find what they have done to support education but I really don't feel like spending my doing that so maybe somebody else can step in who is knowledgable about the NEA. Obviously Bart you don't know much about them and neither do I.

 

[Swass]

I do, refer to my post above. NEA is the problem, not the solution.

 

[bart]

Of course they serve teachers!!! That is their primary function. Do you think the airline pilots association was founded to find ways to better serve the travelling public?

Thanks for making that point.

Would you agree that implying if you don't get a raise then planes might start crashing would be "holding the passengers hostage" to get what you want?

How is the NEA threatening the future of our children any different?

Would ALPA stand in the way of initiatives that increased passenger safety?

The NEA routinely stands in the way of initiatives that would improve the education in government schools.

So please don't compare the two. ALPA is a much more responsible and clear thinking organization.

 

[merikeyegro]

...

You guys should listen to yourselves. You call the NEA a bunch of hacks that have ruined the education system. I wonder what the traveling public thinks about ALPA.

If private education is SO GREAT, then why isn't it just taking over the world? It hit me that much of this world has a public education system and it doesn't seem to be crumbling. Just cuz ours sucks at times (I remember mine being rather good up in MN) doesn't mean that companies would do any better. After all, look how well some of your airlines are doing these days? All that competition really helped everyone out, didn't it? Companies have been contracted to provide education to school districts in the past and have been fired just as quickly because they were ineffective.

My wife works for a private school. She hates the part where you have to sell the place to parents and can't give them an honest evaluation about their child's progress...all for fear of losing their business. How does this improve education? It just makes everyone fear for their jobs and doesn't benefit the true customer - the student. Heck, the NCLB Act is a good example of doing nothing to help the student but just making teachers nervous. It's like the pilots being held responsible for the timeliness of their flights. They may be one part of the problem, but they aren't the WHOLE problem.

Please look at yourself in the mirror. The grass ain't any greener on your side of the lake.

 

[B1900DFO]

Bart tell me some initiatives that the NEA has opposed which would have improved schooling.

How are they "threatening your children?"

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Alpa opposed mandatory drug testing and forcing crew members to go through security. BALPA opposes armed fedearal air marshals on their flights. Does that mean that these pilot labor goups are trying to kill your mother, or threaten her life??? They are clearly not embracing these initiatives that would add an extra layer of safety.

Do teachers deserve to be able to afford decent homes? Buy new cars? Have more than one child? How is the NEA's work at making the teaching profession a rewarding one repugnant; how can you call that holding your children hostage? If you want to jump on that bandwagon the numerous times that Alpa carriers have gone on strike was effectively holding america hostage.

 

[100LL... Again!]

The teachers unions:

Enforce a strict seniority system.

Defend any level of incompetence (seen this myself)

Use scare tactics to keep the rank-and-file in line

Are dumbing down our curricula

The teachers are helpless pawns in this game,
like most union workers


Nothing wrong with teachers, but the NEA will eventually show its true colors

Someday, the ignorant masses will finally realize that they have been played for fool by union mgmt.

I wish I was wrong, really, but I know that I am not.

Conservative, right-wing, and PROUD of the title.

 

[urflyingme?!]

ADMIN IS THE PROBLEM

I recently graduated high school in CA. IT STUNK! We had a saying about our administrators. They were teachers who didn't like cildren, and id everything they could to stay away from them.

We would comonly have our dean of students use pay phones to call parents without using hername, telling them their children did drugs. She did this to my friend who led a youth bible study, because he opposed here on a policy issue!!! He was the sleanest kid i knew. But it ruined his senior year.

The principle supported a teacher who openly drank codeine laced cough syrup in class , for over 2 years!

Security guards took naps in their cars, while at least one car was broken into a month.

Most of the teachers were eccelent, and they aren't paid that pporly. I'm tired of hearing that. With a good degree a teacher can earn up to 80K a year by retirement, thats well above the national avg. Add in the fact that you have three months off a year to do whatever you want, plus at least three weeks of vacation(i don't believe paid) and pension , health and other benefits, ou have a good job. I know plenty of college grads who can't find a job right now, but im sure they could get hired as a teacher.

Public school in america is choked by the various unions ruling it. I'm sorry. We paid 250,000 dollars for a single bathroom! You know how much it would cost if my father's private company had ordered the same one? 40k or less. Now tell me thats a good thing? PLease, someone tell me that's a good thing. Man im sure proud of that teachers union for keeping that teacher in my mathe class WHICH I FAILED because the teacher was hallucnating during class.....

 

[Swass]

Nice flame bait, idiot. But it does prove a point...

 

[secks]

Of course they serve teachers!!! That is their primary function. Do you think the airline pilots association was founded to find ways to better serve the travelling public? Do you think that teachers do not deserve collective bargaining rights or an association that represents them? For god's sakes man. I can't believe you and bart are pilots.

The point is that they serve teachers at the expense of students. You hear any NEA rep. speak, they will proclaim that their organization is dedicated to improving education. Yeah, right. They should at least admit that the welfare of students has nothing to do with their agenda.

Comparing a teacher union to a pilot union is like comparing a cake to a crowbar. Students are beholden to the educational system. These kids have no choice but to work within the confines of the NEA's agenda. You can't just blindly follow a selfish agenda when young peoples' futures are at stake.

As for a low stress environment I don't know what you are talking about. I have several teachers in the family and I can assure you that when the bell rings at the end of the day the teacher's day is nowhere near over. Columbine is not in the ghetto but that didn't keep a couple of crazy kids from deciding to kill a bunch of people at school. Imagine yourself standing in front of six different classes of 14 year olds these days. Tough stuff. It's not a terrible job, but it isn't a walk in the park either. They definitely DO need an organization that stands up for their rights and benefits.

Generally, it's not a terrible job. If it were, nobody would bother teaching anymore. Teaching is something which gets in your blood. I also have several teachers in my family. They do it because they love working with kids.

I've got no problem with teachers banding together and bargaining. The problem is that their agenda is often damaging to students. So why the he|| should parents sympathize with the plight of teachers when their union does a great deal of damage to public school systems?

 

[bart]

I just did some research on teacher pay and in 2002, average starting pay for a teacher was $30,719 . The same research bemoaned that some fields were starting in the $40,000 range.

If I made $40,000 per year, and took the summer off, I would make about, er, uh $30,000 a year.

The average across the US for teacher salaries is $44,367 in 2002. While this may seem low, the average number of years in the profession was 8 years (which the study recognizes is down from 12 years 30 years ago, but they fail to make the statistical link to average salary, they also count college as experience), and so the average per year increase for teachers was 5%. Not bad considering most people saw little if no wage growth in the last 3 years.

Also consider the equivalent for full time work would be just less than $60,000.

Not the greatest wage in the world, but far from the worst. And add to that that you basically cannot get fired, even if you don't do your job, or help your students cheat on standardised tests. It is not a bad deal.

AFT Teacher Pay Study

 

[Freddie Spencer]

....and that has to do with calling them a "terrorist organization"? Somehow you lost me there, let me explain, what I need is evidence that they spread terror around the nation, or around the world.

 

[Cat Driver]

To time travel into the future, You all just look north into socialistic Canada.

Our whole system is screwed including the education system because like sheep Canadians vote liberal.

We are what you are heading for unless you quit dumming down your children with socalistic pablum.

And like Canada the authors of this mindset are the top dogs that drive the education system.

 

[GogglesPisano]

I seem to remember that Canada and ther "socialist" countries like Sweden, France, etc. have better educated children than the U.S.

I know this is blasphemy, but those are the facts. Unless you can dredge up some obscure, right-wing, Limbaugh-esque facts to contradict this.