The Rogue and the Professional

[TurboS7]

Baseball players are professionals.

 

[Crimson03]

It's been awhile since I studied that stuff. I might be confusing the professional exemption from overtime pay with union stuff.

 

[Catbird]

Right on target Redd. Kern's agenda and his pontification from his appointed throne is disgusting. Pricks like Kern are a dime a dozen these days. Self proclaimed experts and regurgitations like Rez O. ready to crap the next expert observation from upon high. Rez O. has been sucking a** at Alpa National for years. He and Kern probably had a lunch date in Georgetown to reinforce each others ego's before takeing the Limo to the Bath House for a in depth research project.

 

[LJDRVR]

I've read all of Dr. Kern's books and several of his papers, Again and again. In addition, I've had the pleasure of meeting him and hearing several of his presentations. His work has altered the course of my career and how I approach aviation. (In a good way)

Redd and Catbird, read this carefully:

Tony Kern is one of the most humble, self-efacing people I have ever met. His transformation from just another pilot to being a warrior for safety took place not for self promotion or profit, but because he was sick and tired of going to the funerals of fellow aviators and friends. Tony has done what no other knee-jerk government agency has ever bothered to do, specifically develop an airmanship model that gives aviators a road map to self-improvement. Dr. Kern researched some of the most succesful aviators in our history, identified common traits and for the first time actually defined what being a good airman means.

This guy is personally responsible for AETC's first CRM program, impacting the ethos and development of thousands of Air Force pilots. His model for airmanship is now in use as the government-mandated human factors curriculem in several countries and Air Forces, he was the first one of us to publicly call rogues what they are and suggest strategies for dealing with them. The ground-breaking work he's involved with now will change the face of how our industry deals with error.

What have you two done for your fellow pilot? Who are you to critisize the guy who has done more to further the cause of error management and human factors since James Reason?

Here's my suggestion. Read his books. Heck, I'll let you borrow mine. So, have you got the guts to take me up on it, put your money where your mouth is? Come back here and have an intelligent discussion on the state of professional aviation in regards to flight discipline and how we could actually reduce the accident rate while at the same time reclaiming our profession from the bean-counters?

Or is it easier to critisize based on your misinformed opinions and/or what your friends told you?

 

[redd]

LJDVR,

Hey, if I was an ex-airforce airman, I would probably feel the same way about one of my own, regardless of what he's doing now.

What he did last year concerns me, what he did 10 years ago, or what kind of good ole boy he is, doesn't concern me. But what he has done recently, really tempers my opinion of him now.

What have you two done for your fellow pilot? Who are you to critisize the guy who has done more to further the cause of error management and human factors since James Reason?

What did he do to help air tanker pilots? He is a bad administrator. There are many other things that could have been done to strengthen the national aerial firefighting program. He took an axe and felled the tree, and then walked away. It's easy to tear something down that took years to build, it's quite something else to go the distance and actually fix and build something great.

The airmen that I've known and met that actually fly airtankers are some of the most highly skilled and safety conscious pilots that there are. They fly into high hazard conditions at low levels with hundreds to thousands of pounds of cargo that they jetison at low levels flying both light and heavy aircraft. Two tankers crashed in 2002 due to structural problems, so the answer is to shut down the industry, yeah, that makes real sense.

They didn't deserve this, and they were cheated out of their livliehood.

I live in the west, and right now there are fires raging north of town, I for one am grateful for all the airborne help we have this year.

 

[Crimson03]

Catbird has a valid point, Kern's stuff reeks of modern unsubstantiated sociology nonsense. Where do the rogues like Otto Lilenthal and the brothers Wright fit in. Oh I forgot we figured everything out and there is no need for independant thought anymore. I guess if you strictly adhere to checklists and SOP you can be an excellent airBus driver- provided you keep the computer happy.

 

[Axel]

Where do the rogues like Otto Lilenthal and the brothers Wright fit in.

There is a difference between a pathfinder and a renegade. Although by necessity they may share the same attributes, the difference lies in the application of those attributes. Pathfinders change the world. Renegades hurt people.

 

[PCL_128]

Catbird has a valid point, Kern's stuff reeks of modern unsubstantiated sociology nonsense. Where do the rogues like Otto Lilenthal and the brothers Wright fit in. Oh I forgot we figured everything out and there is no need for independant thought anymore. I guess if you strictly adhere to checklists and SOP you can be an excellent airBus driver- provided you keep the computer happy.

Please stay in your current position of "househusband" and don't go anywhere near an airliner.

 

[Crimson03]

Please stay in your current position of "househusband" and don't go anywhere near an airliner.

LOL- no problem there, that job is all yours.

Sorry I just find stuff like Kern's really annoying on two points. The first is that for better or worse his approach discourages independant thought.
Secondly while the gold standard for pysch research, double blind random studies probably aren't possibly there are likely well worn personality scales that measure for what they are worth both rogue and professional attitudes. The proper thing would be to a have a few thousand older pilots take said personality scales and compare the results with accident/violation histories. Then give the same tests to young pilots and check in 5, 10 and 20 years and see who has had accidents/violations. Without doing that it all that kern writes is just one person's inflated drawn out opinion.
Our beloved BF Skinner (FOI author) has been discredited, he wrote opinion dressed up as fact as well. But we still have to learn and recite his nonsense, hopefully the FOI's simply make CFI candidates realize that not everyone learns the way they do- add a little independant thought and most people can do an acceptable job of instructing.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Back on track, the intent of the post was to bring awareness between pilots who stick to procedure and others who disregard it. I think we can all agree on that.....

Kerns book was listed as further reading for those who held an interest.

Free Will reigns.......

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Going back to earlier posts. If pilots are true 'professionals' then as professionals should'nt pilots be excluded from collective bargaining, unionization, and such under federal labor law?

How do you want pilots to percieve themselves?


Blue collar hourly labor, like factory and hotel workers?

Or

Like Doctors and architechts?



We are unique in that we fit into blue collar labor, but at the same time our jobs are directly tied to human health.

When you see a sign nailed to a telephone pole that reads "Professional House Painter", what is really applicable? Is a professional painter in a higher class than a "Quality Landscaper"


When working people provide a service to others in which failure can result in death, the definition of professionals is they do not need to be policed! They can be trusted and therefore respected, and ultimately, theorectically, able to command a higher salary or wage.

 

[TurboS7]

I have had a doctor cut my body three time and I have had 2 root canals. Interesting enough they got the jazz music going smiled and went at it. I thought that we were at a party. Afterwards the doc explained to me the secret of successful surgery is getting the brain to relax and to have a loose upbeat atmoshere in the room. He told me I hope that is the kind of atmoshere that you have in your airliner. If people are all uptight about whether they are going to miss something on a checklist, they will screw up-real bad- and they will kill people. I agree with Kern to a point, but when the checklist becomes the objective and not flying the airplane we go of very diffrent paths. I don't doupt that the smoke bombers crank up the rock and roll befoe they make a run, it makes them relax. Same thing goes for baseball, the dugout that is a fun dugout is a winning dugout, and that is the way it is.

 

[Jmajoris]

You're missing exactly what Dr. Kern is talking about. Logic. Logic is the foundation of sound judgement, which of course is the base of aviation safety. This isn't about someone losing there house or job, it's about grounding a fleet of unsafe aircraft. How many sets of wings have to fold before you agree with him? When was the last time that you participated in a metal fatigue study of aging aircraft?

Your comments, and many of the others here are emotionally driven. It's logic that we need to make good sound decisions, not emotion. You may want to read some of his books with an open mind. Perhaps then you will understand his devotion to aviation safety....

LJDVR,

Hey, if I was an ex-airforce airman, I would probably feel the same way about one of my own, regardless of what he's doing now.

What he did last year concerns me, what he did 10 years ago, or what kind of good ole boy he is, doesn't concern me. But what he has done recently, really tempers my opinion of him now.



What did he do to help air tanker pilots? He is a bad administrator. There are many other things that could have been done to strengthen the national aerial firefighting program. He took an axe and felled the tree, and then walked away. It's easy to tear something down that took years to build, it's quite something else to go the distance and actually fix and build something great.

The airmen that I've known and met that actually fly airtankers are some of the most highly skilled and safety conscious pilots that there are. They fly into high hazard conditions at low levels with hundreds to thousands of pounds of cargo that they jetison at low levels flying both light and heavy aircraft. Two tankers crashed in 2002 due to structural problems, so the answer is to shut down the industry, yeah, that makes real sense.

They didn't deserve this, and they were cheated out of their livliehood.

I live in the west, and right now there are fires raging north of town, I for one am grateful for all the airborne help we have this year.

 

[redd]

Logic is the foundation of sound judgement...it's about grounding a fleet of unsafe aircraft

Ummm...I think we've already mentioned that the 33 "grounded" aircraft were and are proven to be safe, and are and have been released back into duty one by one, meaning that they were grounded rashly and in error....The only two aircraft that crashed (due to metal fatigue, etc) were already grounded (from service)way before that...Logic huh? Comprende?

 

[TurboS7]

Kern failed to note that aircraft have to be looked at on an individual basis with logic and reasoning. It seems that grounding a whole fleet is an emotional decision which cost some great flyers some jobs. Kern can write all he wants but applying it in a real life scenario is a complete diffrent thing.