The Real story of pinnacle pilots

[Flyer1015]

You do know that Date of Hire was not used in seniority integration, right?

Any chance of using DOH for integrating purposes was screwed the day the 9E committee submitted the initial seniority list that had the date of hire column as our sim date. I like how the 9E committee then claimed that we made it clear from day 1 that our class date was our DOH for integrating purposes, however, that is false. Once the Mesaba merger committee disputed it, there was the initial response from JH, and Mesaba's JM responded with their stance on our DOH issue. At that point, Bloch emailed saying, and I quote: "John, could you please clarify this."

That's within that email chain. The fact that Bloch even had to ask US to clarify the DOH position that late into the game clearly indicates to me that our group failed to represent our interests fairly. They never got the message across to the other committees, nor arbitrator Bloch, which is why Bloch asked our group for clarification well after the April 15 hearings were closed. In the following email, that is when the 9E committee took a low blow and stated that we have received additional information today about further turboprop reductions, but this committee will not be entering this information on record.

Lets face it, Bloch saw through the 9E committee's incompetency at handling the seniority list and at their low blow on the Saab reductions. Also, an outright staple proposal of Colgan was something that definitely didn't go well with Bloch, and he therefore fenced us off for the entire 5 years from Saabs. If you pretend they don't exist, then they will not exist for you.

 

[jynxyjericho]

Nice to see the information is getting out there.

 

[DoinTime]

Any chance of using DOH for integrating purposes was screwed the day the 9E committee submitted the initial seniority list that had the date of hire column as our sim date. I like how the 9E committee then claimed that we made it clear from day 1 that our class date was our DOH for integrating purposes, however, that is false. Once the Mesaba merger committee disputed it, there was the initial response from JH, and Mesaba's JM responded with their stance on our DOH issue. At that point, Bloch emailed saying, and I quote: "John, could you please clarify this."

That's within that email chain. The fact that Bloch even had to ask US to clarify the DOH position that late into the game clearly indicates to me that our group failed to represent our interests fairly. They never got the message across to the other committees, nor arbitrator Bloch, which is why Bloch asked our group for clarification well after the April 15 hearings were closed. In the following email, that is when the 9E committee took a low blow and stated that we have received additional information today about further turboprop reductions, but this committee will not be entering this information on record.

Lets face it, Bloch saw through the 9E committee's incompetency at handling the seniority list and at their low blow on the Saab reductions. Also, an outright staple proposal of Colgan was something that definitely didn't go well with Bloch, and he therefore fenced us off for the entire 5 years from Saabs. If you pretend they don't exist, then they will not exist for you.

The PCL committee did not propose DOH nor do they claim they ever had an intent to. You probably would have done better with DOH but that is not the case with the majority of the PCL list. Are you suggesting that "your way" was the right way? WTF are you talking about?

 

[Flyer1015]

The PCL committee did not propose DOH nor do they claim they ever had an intent to. You probably would have done better with DOH but that is not the case with the majority of the PCL list. Are you suggesting that "your way" was the right way? WTF are you talking about?

Of course I know the 9E committee didn't propose DOH nor did they have an intent to. Their primary interest was preserving the senior guys, and their "worse case scenario" was the CRJ-900 being a category by itself. In the end, that's exactly what happened.

My point was that the arbitrator could have used the Mesaba DOH proposal but any chance of doing that was crushed by the DOH issue/debacle. That's why even in his final award, he mentions that he has no idea how to resove the issue, and therefore does not. The cat/stat method took care of that by itself.

And make no mistake: it's not the DOH or stat/cat method that has screwed the 9E group. It's the ratios based on an extremely low staffing ratio/number, the one-way Colgan quota on the Q, and the fence on the Saab.

 

[DoinTime]

Of course I know the 9E committee didn't propose DOH nor did they have an intent to. Their primary interest was preserving the senior guys, and their "worse case scenario" was the CRJ-900 being a category by itself. In the end, that's exactly what happened.

My point was that the arbitrator could have used the Mesaba DOH proposal but any chance of doing that was crushed by the DOH issue/debacle. That's why even in his final award, he mentions that he has no idea how to resove the issue, and therefore does not. The cat/stat method took care of that by itself.

And make no mistake: it's not the DOH or stat/cat method that has screwed the 9E group. It's the ratios based on an extremely low staffing ratio/number, the one-way Colgan quota on the Q, and the fence on the Saab.

Pilot seniority hasn't been decided by DOH by an arbitrator for over two decades. If you really think Bloch was considering DOH, you are diluted. I'm sorry that the majority of PCL weren't sold out to appease you.

 

[jynxyjericho]

Pilot seniority hasn't been decided by DOH by an arbitrator for over two decades. If you really think Bloch was considering DOH, you are diluted. I'm sorry that the majority of PCL weren't sold out to appease you.

The discussion was more about the Pinnacle SLI committee than flyer getting burned wasn't it?

 

[Flyer1015]

Pilot seniority hasn't been decided by DOH by an arbitrator for over two decades. If you really think Bloch was considering DOH, you are diluted. I'm sorry that the majority of PCL weren't sold out to appease you.

Well, most arbitrated SLI have been at the national/major/legacy level, not regionals. The last time it was a 3 (or more) pure regional airlines merger for airlines serving the same mother line was American Eagle circa 1996/7and that went DOH. The regionals are different than the legacies and majors. It doesn't matter if it has been two decades since the last DOH decision. Had the 9e group backed xj's DOH method, Bloch would have had an equivalent of 2,400 pilots for it, and 600 against. Who are you to say what Bloch was going to consider or not? You don't know what went on in his brain.

However, I've seen the email chain now. It is crystal clear to me that the DOH issue was never addressed properly for Bloch to ask "John, could you please clarify this for me?" in regards to the DOH issue brought up by Mesaba. That clearly shows without any doubt that even Bloch was taken back by the Mesaba claims, and it shows that Bloch had no clue what indeed was Pinnacle's DOH.

And, excuse me? I'm sorry, please come again. Did you say you're sorry that the majority of 9E pilots weren't sold out to appease me? REALLY? Do you realize that considering what's happened now with this SLI, its quotas, and its fences, we ALL (at 9E and XJ) would have been far better off with DOH than the current mess!!!!! A DOH method would have ensured no Pinnacle pilot would have lost their seat, left or right. It is clear we had 9E captains get downgraded while Colgan and even some Mesaba guys hired physically after March 2007 were able to hold tons of left seats. On top of that, the the first 100 guys at 9E got screwed anyway with a near 3.69-to-1 merger.

 

[IamGumbyDammit]

Well, most arbitrated SLI have been at the national/major/legacy level, not regionals. The last time it was a 3 (or more) pure regional airlines merger for airlines serving the same mother line was American Eagle circa 1996/7and that went DOH. The regionals are different than the legacies and majors. It doesn't matter if it has been two decades since the last DOH decision. Had the 9e group backed xj's DOH method, Bloch would have had an equivalent of 2,400 pilots for it, and 600 against. Who are you to say what Bloch was going to consider or not? You don't know what went on in his brain.

However, I've seen the email chain now. It is crystal clear to me that the DOH issue was never addressed properly for Bloch to ask "John, could you please clarify this for me?" in regards to the DOH issue brought up by Mesaba. That clearly shows without any doubt that even Bloch was taken back by the Mesaba claims, and it shows that Bloch had no clue what indeed was Pinnacle's DOH.

And, excuse me? I'm sorry, please come again. Did you say you're sorry that the majority of 9E pilots weren't sold out to appease me? REALLY? Do you realize that considering what's happened now with this SLI, its quotas, and its fences, we ALL (at 9E and XJ) would have been far better off with DOH than the current mess!!!!! A DOH method would have ensured no Pinnacle pilot would have lost their seat, left or right. It is clear we had 9E captains get downgraded while Colgan and even some Mesaba guys hired physically after March 2007 were able to hold tons of left seats. On top of that, the the first 100 guys at 9E got screwed anyway with a near 3.69-to-1 merger.

That's like two wolves and one sheep voting on what's for dinner- Bloch wouldn't have allowed that.

 

[MACH-TUCK]

Flyer, you need to go on vacation for like a month and not log into FI.

 

[DoinTime]

Well, most arbitrated SLI have been at the national/major/legacy level, not regionals. The last time it was a 3 (or more) pure regional airlines merger for airlines serving the same mother line was American Eagle circa 1996/7and that went DOH. The regionals are different than the legacies and majors. It doesn't matter if it has been two decades since the last DOH decision. Had the 9e group backed xj's DOH method, Bloch would have had an equivalent of 2,400 pilots for it, and 600 against. Who are you to say what Bloch was going to consider or not? You don't know what went on in his brain.

However, I've seen the email chain now. It is crystal clear to me that the DOH issue was never addressed properly for Bloch to ask "John, could you please clarify this for me?" in regards to the DOH issue brought up by Mesaba. That clearly shows without any doubt that even Bloch was taken back by the Mesaba claims, and it shows that Bloch had no clue what indeed was Pinnacle's DOH.

And, excuse me? I'm sorry, please come again. Did you say you're sorry that the majority of 9E pilots weren't sold out to appease me? REALLY? Do you realize that considering what's happened now with this SLI, its quotas, and its fences, we ALL (at 9E and XJ) would have been far better off with DOH than the current mess!!!!! A DOH method would have ensured no Pinnacle pilot would have lost their seat, left or right. It is clear we had 9E captains get downgraded while Colgan and even some Mesaba guys hired physically after March 2007 were able to hold tons of left seats. On top of that, the the first 100 guys at 9E got screwed anyway with a near 3.69-to-1 merger.

Do you realize that the XJ DOH proposal contained even more draconian quotas and restrictions than what Bloch awarded? Stop demonstrating your ignorance on these issues. Call one of your reps and get the real story.

 

[Inconceivable]

Protip: Stop b!tching about the award which is DONE and focus your energy on letting your reps know what you feel about any concessions.

Be advised that TW is going to propose concessions with snapbacks - just like he did before. Just like Darth Vader, that does not mean that they company will not alter the bargain further in BK court. If you still think that PCL will avoid a trip to BK then I apologize for wasting your time and you should go back to waiting on your TWA interview call.

If you DO NOT want concessions, here is what you need to do:

1. COMMUNICATE with your status rep. Let them know that you support "full pay to the last day" and that no concession is acceptable.

2. ADVISE your status rep that you will support recall of any and all status reps who do support concessions.

3. INFORM your status rep that you will support the election of individuals after recall who will recall and replace the MEC officers who support concessions.

Remember, TW is paid by YOU not Pinnacle. It is your 1.95% that keeps him from having to be current in any PCL Corp. aircraft. It is your 1.95% that paid for his dinner at Texas de Brasil last Wednesday - yep, he gets unlimited steak while discussing plans for your concessions. Make it clear that you will send this clown back to the line if he or any of the others try to help Menke lift a cent from your pay.

Legacy PCL pilots have been underpaid for a decade and that money was used to buy to failing carriers who operate at a loss - the integration of which has bankrupted the company.

Legacy Colgan pilots were paid and worked worse than a lot of flight instructors.

Why should the majority of pilots sacrifice ANYTHING so that the super-senior legacy Mesaba pilots - too comfortable to even want to flow to Delta - can continue to sup at the trough? They will not be affected by the parking of aircraft and furloughs - YOU will.

 

[TristarJS30]

Protip: Stop b!tching about the award which is DONE and focus your energy on letting your reps know what you feel about any concessions.

Be advised that TW is going to propose concessions with snapbacks - just like he did before. Just like Darth Vader, that does not mean that they company will not alter the bargain further in BK court. If you still think that PCL will avoid a trip to BK then I apologize for wasting your time and you should go back to waiting on your TWA interview call.

If you DO NOT want concessions, here is what you need to do:

1. COMMUNICATE with your status rep. Let them know that you support "full pay to the last day" and that no concession is acceptable.

2. ADVISE your status rep that you will support recall of any and all status reps who do support concessions.

3. INFORM your status rep that you will support the election of individuals after recall who will recall and replace the MEC officers who support concessions.

Remember, TW is paid by YOU not Pinnacle. It is your 1.95% that keeps him from having to be current in any PCL Corp. aircraft. It is your 1.95% that paid for his dinner at Texas de Brasil last Wednesday - yep, he gets unlimited steak while discussing plans for your concessions. Make it clear that you will send this clown back to the line if he or any of the others try to help Menke lift a cent from your pay.

Legacy PCL pilots have been underpaid for a decade and that money was used to buy to failing carriers who operate at a loss - the integration of which has bankrupted the company.

Legacy Colgan pilots were paid and worked worse than a lot of flight instructors.

Why should the majority of pilots sacrifice ANYTHING so that the super-senior legacy Mesaba pilots - too comfortable to even want to flow to Delta - can continue to sup at the trough? They will not be affected by the parking of aircraft and furloughs - YOU will.

+1. Anyone have any "FUPM" swag laying around?

 

[Flyer1015]

That's like two wolves and one sheep voting on what's for dinner- Bloch wouldn't have allowed that.

I would have never guessed that Bloch would have allowed a one way quota on the Q400 and a full fence protection on the Saab, but guess what, it happened. That's like a pack of sheep with sniper rifles deciding which wolf they are going to take out.

Do you realize that the XJ DOH proposal contained even more draconian quotas and restrictions than what Bloch awarded? Stop demonstrating your ignorance on these issues. Call one of your reps and get the real story.

Well, I did, both the XJ and 9L. And after seeing that email chain, I'm convinced the 9E committee screwd up. Curious though, how did PS ever go along with that sh*tty proposal? Sure the DOH had some restrictions that weren't favorable, but nothing was worse than proposing a full outright staple of an entire pilot group by having jet categories above props. That is a stupid, imbecile, incompetent move that should be punished. And punished us he did! There is a reason our quotas and fence on the prop side is horrendous for the 9E folks, and the reason is the 3 people on the 9E merger/SLI committee.

 

[Flyer1015]

Protip: Stop b!tching about the award which is DONE and focus your energy on letting your reps know what you feel about any concessions.

Be advised that TW is going to propose concessions with snapbacks - just like he did before. Just like Darth Vader, that does not mean that they company will not alter the bargain further in BK court. If you still think that PCL will avoid a trip to BK then I apologize for wasting your time and you should go back to waiting on your TWA interview call.

If you DO NOT want concessions, here is what you need to do:

1. COMMUNICATE with your status rep. Let them know that you support "full pay to the last day" and that no concession is acceptable.

2. ADVISE your status rep that you will support recall of any and all status reps who do support concessions.

3. INFORM your status rep that you will support the election of individuals after recall who will recall and replace the MEC officers who support concessions.

Remember, TW is paid by YOU not Pinnacle. It is your 1.95% that keeps him from having to be current in any PCL Corp. aircraft. It is your 1.95% that paid for his dinner at Texas de Brasil last Wednesday - yep, he gets unlimited steak while discussing plans for your concessions. Make it clear that you will send this clown back to the line if he or any of the others try to help Menke lift a cent from your pay.

Legacy PCL pilots have been underpaid for a decade and that money was used to buy to failing carriers who operate at a loss - the integration of which has bankrupted the company.

Legacy Colgan pilots were paid and worked worse than a lot of flight instructors.

Why should the majority of pilots sacrifice ANYTHING so that the super-senior legacy Mesaba pilots - too comfortable to even want to flow to Delta - can continue to sup at the trough? They will not be affected by the parking of aircraft and furloughs - YOU will.

I think the reps know that, or at least, they should. But like the old Pinnacle union members (the ones who were recalled), the senior side will do what they think is best to keep their golden goose eggs alive and well, even if that means selling out the junior side. You are correct, TW will most likely offer concessions with snapback provisions. If we are lucky enough for the pilot group to vote on any concessions, I'm confident we'll vote no. In that case, a quick trip to bankruptcy and the company will file motion 1113e for contract relief.

 

[Inconceivable]

You won't get a vote, there is no time for that. You MUST be proactive and tell your reps where you stand NOW before it is done for you.

Senior pilots are grossly outnumbered by FOs and Captains facing downgrade. Motivating these people to actually play a role in their own destiny is another matter.