the pro's and cons of unions in the fractional aviation and airline industry

[hangarrat]

any chance we can discuss the pro's and cons of unions in the fractional aviation and airline industry in here instead of in the threads that are supposed to contain information about the fractional companies we all work for?

I dont know about the rest of you, but it gets tough sorting through the opinions and bickering to find the info about about flying jobs and what is going on in them.

just my 2 cents worth...

 

[B19 Flyer]

No. I would like you to remember the 2 times you were laid off due to piss poor management. Management signs the contracts with unions. If they can't afford the contracts they shouldn't sign them. That is called poor management.

You may "feel" secure.

I AM secure.

You are no more secure than any of the thousands of union pilots who have been furloughed before that thought they were secure also. In my case, I would only have to worry about faulty management. In your case, you have to worry about faulty management and a greedy union. I like my odds. I've removed the other problem from my career.

 

[CA1900]

In my case, I would only have to worry about faulty management. In your case, you have to worry about faulty management and a greedy union.

Not exactly. Furloughs aren't the only thing you have to worry about. When management of a non-union pilot force runs into trouble, they can cut pay, cut benefits, cut days off, screw with schedules, close domiciles with no recourse, displace pilots out of seniority order, and much more.

I experienced all of the above at my last operator, in addition to a furlough of half the workforce before 9/11, while our competitors were making tons of money. Why? Simple mismanagement. Right after they announced they were closing bases and furloughing pilots, they were filling up the president's toy jet from the company fuel truck right in front of me. I'll never forget that morning.

With a union contract in place, management is forced to find other ways to save a buck other than simply changing work rules and compensation to make their bottom line work out. I'm glad your company is treating you well at the moment. I hope for your sake that it stays that way. I've seen first-hand what happens when it doesn't.

I'll take my "greedy" union--whose contract paid my whole year's union dues in this week's paycheck just in overtime--over a greedy management team any day of the week.

 

[Ultra Grump]

Not exactly. Furloughs aren't the only thing you have to worry about. When management of a non-union pilot force runs into trouble, they can cut pay, cut benefits, cut days off, screw with schedules, close domiciles with no recourse, displace pilots out of seniority order, and much more.

B19 has already admitted he is management. Of course he wants to work at a non-union carrier. It makes his job of doing the things you list that much easier.

 

[pilotpat]

B19: I'll say it one more time on this thread. You need to drop the big "management" chip on your shoulder. Are you even involved in flying? If you are, then you need to get over your "layoff", move on in life, and find peace. If you are not involved in aviation...then maybe just sit there and be quiet. You never seem to have anything new to say.

I guess the unions for the firemen, policemen, and other civil servants should be done away with. For shame. Trying to help people get a better life. Shame, shame, shame.

 

[B19 Flyer]

B19: I'll say it one more time on this thread. You need to drop the big "management" chip on your shoulder. Are you even involved in flying? If you are, then you need to get over your "layoff", move on in life, and find peace. If you are not involved in aviation...then maybe just sit there and be quiet. You never seem to have anything new to say.

I guess the unions for the firemen, policemen, and other civil servants should be done away with. For shame. Trying to help people get a better life. Shame, shame, shame.

Sit here and be quiet? It's kind of fun now because I no longer have to bite my tongue. Very few people try to educate those that have only experienced the good side of a union. For every arguement you have for a union in AVIATION, I'll give you an example of how a pilot or support worker got screwed over because of a union. Aviation unions are notoriously radical and will pull every trick in the book to get what they want, then squeeze the golden goose till it can no longer breathe. Am I involved in flying? I spent 23 hours aloft this week. No, I don't fly anymore, but yes, I'm VERY involved. It's also fun not being in management anymore. Almost as fun as a secure paycheck in a non-union carrier!:laugh:

 

[B19 Flyer]

B19 has already admitted he is management. Of course he wants to work at a non-union carrier. It makes his job of doing the things you list that much easier.

Grump, the only thing that makes it easier is that you can treat your employees a lot better without a contract than you can with. Talented pilots will get upgraded on skills rather than seniority, weak pilots will stay safely in the right seat longer to get more experience. Support personnel have more flexibility to grant time off and add extra block hours if the pilot requests them. We also don't need to go through all the union posturing and slow downs every four or five years like union carriers do.

 

[infoman]

Hmmmm,

Not a pilot...not in management but aloft 23 hours...must be a flight attendant. Sorry but you put that grape fruit pitch out there... I couldn't help myself.

Have a Happy.

 

[pilotpat]

B19...why don't you just 'fess up and tell everyone what exactly you do? Are you a CFI, are you a FE, a FA? What the heck is it that you really do? Then again, you probably have no real finger on the pulse and are just calling upon facts learned long ago and still harbor far too much resentment. In short - just forget my question.

 

[jppt2000]

Grump, the only thing that makes it easier is that you can treat your employees a lot better without a contract than you can with. Talented pilots will get upgraded on skills rather than seniority, weak pilots will stay safely in the right seat longer to get more experience. Support personnel have more flexibility to grant time off and add extra block hours if the pilot requests them. We also don't need to go through all the union posturing and slow downs every four or five years like union carriers do.

Sorry to disagree, IMHO, favoritism, the bubbas, or "go to team" would be much bigger and if I might say blatant, if it weren't for the CBA where I work.
Companies always have a tiny percentage of weak pilots in non-union and union shops.