El Chupacabra
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 27, 2004
- Posts
- 527
The Cat says:
I agree you are working when you are on call. Being on call with the responsibility to work is excluded from the definition of rest under Part135 and 91K. We consider all such time DUTY time. It is working. However it is not productive work.
It is like the drag associated with flight. Parasite drag produces Heat but NOT ... LIFT. I am producing more "LIFT", flying under the fractional model than I probably would under the 91 corporate model, and LESS Parasite Drag.
Another analogy is the difference between different jet engines.
One engine uses 2/3 of its energy created by burning fuels just to keep the gas generator operating leaving just 1/3 of the energy available to produce Thrust. Another engine with a more efficient design burns the same amount of fuel and has the same total energy available but uses only 5/8ths of the energy to spin the compressor and 3/8ths of the total energy is available as Thrust.
And finally for those of us "who have been shot at",
Time and fuel burned training or while aerial refueling is necessary, but does not put Steel on the Target. Hurting people and breaking things is the Purpose of attack aircraft and the only measure of its productivity that matters.
The purpose of business aircraft is to Move people from one place to another. When doing this the airplne and crew are productive. All other time working and on duty are not productive as defined as doing what the purpose of such aircraft and crews is.
Under the fractional model there is less Parasite drag and more time spent Producing what the airplane and crew were designed to do. Its not that the pilots are better or worse... It is the model... The fracs are squeezing more juice out of the lemon then some other models.
The PURPOSE of an airplane and flightcrews is TO FLY.
Another point. Someone, possibly you, claimed that because we had such a good duty schedule our aircraft had to be manned by 5 pilots. But those 5 pilots are Producing 800 occupied hours per year per aircraft. These 5 pilots and ONE aircraft are doing the work of TWO possible Three single airplane flight departments. These three separate flight departments would be manned at 3 pilots per dept and one aircraft.
So the 5 NJA pilots and One Aircraft are doing the work it would require 9 pilots and Three aircraft to do otherwise. This is a TREMENDOUS Productivity advantage Netjets enjoys and this is the point that ASAP is making regarding productivity. We do not claim we are superior pilots just that the company is squeezing more Productive Work out of us because of this model.
Yes you serve the purpose of your corporate flight department and you are and should be paid well. We do not say you should not. We believe we deserve, and NJA should easily be able to pay the same. Especially since they enjoy these great advantages in getting one airplane to do the work of THREE, and 5 pilots to do the Productive work of up to 9 pilots under other models.
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Good arithmetic, but you don't get it. Since they initiated this comparison to corporate jobs, and you've now questioned my response, not seeing one in your experience, I'll give you a quick run-down on why your statement is silly and leads to handing ammunition to employers for lowering pay. This is the deal....
If I'm at home tucking in the kids, but have to answer the phone and fly away if it rings, that's not being "off", that's working. That's working even if I do it for a week and fly zero hours. That's working every day if Ifly 100 hours per year and do 10 RONs. Basically what ASAP is saying when they use the hours-flown comparison to forward their agenda using their airline-esque version of "productivity" while seeking corporate pay, and likewise you with your time-away arithmetic, is say it's NOT working.
The reason corporate pilot pay is high even though the hours flown are low, is because compansation has been insisted upon and accepted that hours flown, or time spent away from home, are NOT the measure of the job. The position itself is, whether they decide to fly my a$$ off or let me rot, the salary is the same. I'm not building hours...I don't give a sh1t how much I fly. I care about pay, and time-off to do whatever I want to do. Tell me that being at home tucking in the kids means that I'm not working if it's not a scheduled off-day, and I'll laugh, because if I get called I DO have to show up at the airplane. Ihave to plan around that contingency. It's no different that sitting reserve. Is sitting reserve and not getting called, not work either?
By your standard, companies would, and did, pay less...because the "look-back" accounting made it seems like the pilots worked little. This isn't friggin' hourly wages, it's a salary, and in the corporate world, you look forward to scheduled days off.....because otherwise, you're on company time, whether spent at home or lounging for a week in Phuket. He11, there's even people out there that think that's a vacation because you didnt do any flying while you were there.
It took a long time to overcome that crap. It's the same crap when people take contract work and accept lower pay during the days they sit than the days they fly the plane. Mostly ex-airline guys, because they are still locked into that "flying is working" productivity mindset. In other words, clueless and self-defeating, lowering he standard. I swear, where do you guys come up with this stuff?
Will you guys ever shake that hourly-wage mindset, where pay has something to do with block times or where you happen to be? That "work" is defined by if you flew that day? None of those things matter in the jobs you're comparing yourselves to.
Mr Cat. If I'm at home tucking in the kids, but have to answer the phone and fly away if it rings, that's not being "off", that's working. That's working even if I do it for a week and fly zero hours. That's working every day if Ifly 100 hours per year and do 10 RONs. Basically what ASAP is saying when they use the hours-flown comparison to forward their agenda using their airline-esque version of "productivity" while seeking corporate pay, and likewise you with your time-away arithmetic, is say it's NOT working.
The reason corporate pilot pay is high even though the hours flown are low, is because compansation has been insisted upon and accepted that hours flown, or time spent away from home, are NOT the measure of the job. The position itself is, whether they decide to fly my a$$ off or let me rot, the salary is the same. I'm not building hours...I don't give a sh1t how much I fly. I care about pay, and time-off to do whatever I want to do. Tell me that being at home tucking in the kids means that I'm not working if it's not a scheduled off-day, and I'll laugh, because if I get called I DO have to show up at the airplane. Ihave to plan around that contingency. It's no different that sitting reserve. Is sitting reserve and not getting called, not work either?
By your standard, companies would, and did, pay less...because the "look-back" accounting made it seems like the pilots worked little. This isn't friggin' hourly wages, it's a salary, and in the corporate world, you look forward to scheduled days off.....because otherwise, you're on company time, whether spent at home or lounging for a week in Phuket. He11, there's even people out there that think that's a vacation because you didnt do any flying while you were there.
It took a long time to overcome that crap. It's the same crap when people take contract work and accept lower pay during the days they sit than the days they fly the plane. Mostly ex-airline guys, because they are still locked into that "flying is working" productivity mindset. In other words, clueless and self-defeating, lowering he standard. I swear, where do you guys come up with this stuff?
Will you guys ever shake that hourly-wage mindset, where pay has something to do with block times or where you happen to be? That "work" is defined by if you flew that day? None of those things matter in the jobs you're comparing yourselves to.
I agree you are working when you are on call. Being on call with the responsibility to work is excluded from the definition of rest under Part135 and 91K. We consider all such time DUTY time. It is working. However it is not productive work.
It is like the drag associated with flight. Parasite drag produces Heat but NOT ... LIFT. I am producing more "LIFT", flying under the fractional model than I probably would under the 91 corporate model, and LESS Parasite Drag.
Another analogy is the difference between different jet engines.
One engine uses 2/3 of its energy created by burning fuels just to keep the gas generator operating leaving just 1/3 of the energy available to produce Thrust. Another engine with a more efficient design burns the same amount of fuel and has the same total energy available but uses only 5/8ths of the energy to spin the compressor and 3/8ths of the total energy is available as Thrust.
And finally for those of us "who have been shot at",
Time and fuel burned training or while aerial refueling is necessary, but does not put Steel on the Target. Hurting people and breaking things is the Purpose of attack aircraft and the only measure of its productivity that matters.
The purpose of business aircraft is to Move people from one place to another. When doing this the airplne and crew are productive. All other time working and on duty are not productive as defined as doing what the purpose of such aircraft and crews is.
Under the fractional model there is less Parasite drag and more time spent Producing what the airplane and crew were designed to do. Its not that the pilots are better or worse... It is the model... The fracs are squeezing more juice out of the lemon then some other models.
The PURPOSE of an airplane and flightcrews is TO FLY.
Another point. Someone, possibly you, claimed that because we had such a good duty schedule our aircraft had to be manned by 5 pilots. But those 5 pilots are Producing 800 occupied hours per year per aircraft. These 5 pilots and ONE aircraft are doing the work of TWO possible Three single airplane flight departments. These three separate flight departments would be manned at 3 pilots per dept and one aircraft.
So the 5 NJA pilots and One Aircraft are doing the work it would require 9 pilots and Three aircraft to do otherwise. This is a TREMENDOUS Productivity advantage Netjets enjoys and this is the point that ASAP is making regarding productivity. We do not claim we are superior pilots just that the company is squeezing more Productive Work out of us because of this model.
Yes you serve the purpose of your corporate flight department and you are and should be paid well. We do not say you should not. We believe we deserve, and NJA should easily be able to pay the same. Especially since they enjoy these great advantages in getting one airplane to do the work of THREE, and 5 pilots to do the Productive work of up to 9 pilots under other models.
__________________
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