The Passion of the Christ

[TWA Dude]

And yes there was a great earthquake at the time of Jesus's death, and the temple curtain was split from top to bottom.

I guess what I'm inquiring about is whether there's corroborating evidence of damage to the Temple at the moment of Jesus' death, i.e., archeological, Roman records, Josephus, etc. Not having read the Gospels I'd never heard of this earthquake. Of course there were many quakes throughout history in Palestine which have destroyed most of the Roman buildings in the area.

Dude

 

[wms]

Yes, the earth did quake and the veil tore in two, and the centurion who participated in His crucifixion was saved himself at the foot of the cross when he saw these things with his own eyes. The temple itself was destroyed in AD 70.

Matt 50
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain (torn in two) from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent (broke);
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves AFTER HIS RESURRECTION, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

 

[Super 80]

What the Bible does say is this: "MT 27:51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. "

The Curtain shields the Most Holy Place from the Holy Place inside the Temple. Here is where the Ark of the Covenant would have been. It has not been accounted for since the time of Jeremiah. Only the High Priest can enter there and only after fulfilling a specific set of cleansing rituals to offer the yearly atonement on the Mercy Seat. The Curtain is made so tight and thick that to pass the test whether a new one can be used; it has to have four bulls pull at the corners and not a spot of sunlight can leak through at mid day.

There is an alternate crucifixion site at the base of Golgatha at a place called Jeremiah's grotto. There an archaeological dig has unearthed a rock with four post holes carved in it, three in a row and a fourth on a ledge up and behind the three. A split occurs in this rock going through the fourth post hole. In the rock face behind the post holes are three rectangular niches carved out. This is just to the North of Jerusalem and located along a heavily traveled East-West road which circumnavigates the city.

A known Roman practice was to crucify criminals on the heavier traveled roads leading into a city. This had a way of warning those about to enter not to disobey Roman law. The East-West road is on a lower portion was dug out by the Israelis for the defense of the city. Since the hill Jerusalem is on was level to the north, carving the hillside made a natural defense. Otherwise, the city walls would be more vulnerable to attack because without the dug ravine, an enemy could march up and level with the city. This also had the effect of making this a shortcut between the Valley of Medron and the Valley of Hinnom, and so it became a popular route of getting from one side to the other.

Splitting the Curtain shows that the divide was no longer necessary as God's presense was now available to men through the Holy Spirit, and the atonement for sin was done perfectly by a Priest of the Order of Melchizedek one time for all.

 

[crowbar]

I just saw the funniest movie, a really cool movie about god, she's a girl.
DOGMA is funny as hell, Matt and Ben are awsome.

 

[Super 80]

I just saw the funniest movie, a really cool movie about god, she's a girl.

Gee that's funny, most of the world's religions have their theology centered on a goddess instead of a God, with her literally giving birth to the universe. This gets into the whole mother-son worship from Babylon on down. One facet we still celebrate comes from the Caldean version of the Babylonians through an eighth century English transliteration: Easter.

But it is not surprising their religions are woman based, or run in cycles. That is man's experience on earth. The seasons run in cycles, the sun, moon and stars; there's the life cycle and the cycle of the crops. And in all the world, life comes through the female in a poor uneducated agricultural view. So it is not surprising that we see these same aspects in pagan religions.

Only in the Bible (or Tanach for my Jewish friends) does God say He (actually in the plural) does the creating. And this is a straight line process with a beginning and an end. Furthermore, this creation comes not about by birth, but by the power of His Word. This has been unfathomable for 5000 years until now we can understand how matter is created by energy: E=mc2.

 

[Snakum]

most of the world's religions have their theology centered on a goddess instead of a God,

You are insanely ill-informed.

It's called a LIBRARY ... look into it.

That is all ...



Minh

 

[TurboS7]

The attributes of God are both male and female. That is why the union of a man and a women is so sacred. In that union is the representation of the like image of God. Marriage when it is working is a representation of the complete attributes and qualities that we will enjoy in heaven.

 

[TWA Dude]

Yes, the earth did quake and the veil tore in two...

Thank you, but I was looking for a reference other than the Christian Bible. It seems there is none.

Dude

 

[TurboS7]

There acutally is evidence of the earthquake outside of the Bible. You would have to go to a Geology search but they do have evidence of the fault and the time that it moved. You will find that it is right on target. The neat thing about the Bible is that the more evidence you try and find against it the more you will find that it is the truth. Go for it.

 

[mar]

My recollection is vague at this point..

...but wasn't the earthquake shown in the film the result of some foreshadowing by Jesus.

He said something to the effect of, "I can destroy and rebuild the Temple in one day."

Later in the film, as he's close to being nailed to the cross, one of the Jewish elders asks him (paraphrased), "Do you still think you can destroy the Temple?"

And then when..."it is accomplished...." the Temple is destroyed by the earthquake.

Would I be wrong to assume His resurrection is the rebuilding of a temple, metaphorically speaking...

Not a rebuilding of *the* Temple, but a symbolic 'temple'...

 

[Super 80]

Thank you, but I was looking for a reference other than the Christian Bible. It seems there is none.

Well, seeing that the Temple was destroyed and the city sacked (and we're lucky they got some scrolls out or we wouldn't have Masoretic Text for the Tanach) less than 40 years hence, it's not surprising there is no Jewish history of this event. I'm not sure they would have wanted to publish this event with great fanfare either.

Come to think of it, there hasn't been a proper atonement for sin since the fall of Jerusalem when the Ark of the Covenant was still in the Temple. That puts it some 586 years before Jesus' time.

However, the Christian Bible is superbly supported as a truthful first century account. There is no reason to doubt the Gospels on their bibliography.

Have you asked a Rabbi for an interpretation of Isaiah 52:13-53:12 yet? Are you allowed to interpret this yourself? If so, what is yours?

 

[Super 80]

Re: My recollection is vague at this point..

...but wasn't the earthquake shown in the film the result of some foreshadowing by Jesus.

He said something to the effect of, "I can destroy and rebuild the Temple in one day."

Later in the film, as he's close to being nailed to the cross, one of the Jewish elders asks him (paraphrased), "Do you still think you can destroy the Temple?"

And then when..."it is accomplished...." the Temple is destroyed by the earthquake.

Would I be wrong to assume His resurrection is the rebuilding of a temple, metaphorically speaking...

Not a rebuilding of *the* Temple, but a symbolic 'temple'...

1. The earthquake does not have the element of foreshadowing you reference from the film. If there is a commentary that makes this point, I am unaware of it, nor have I ever heard it preached. I could ask my Pastor, but I doubt there's anything to it. I consider this part of Mel Gibson's artistic license.

2. The Temple is His body. God does not need a house built by men in which to dwell. See Isaiah 66:1 and Acts 7:44-53.

3. The Pharisees were taking Jesus literally. I think it is telling that their focus is on the physical. This goes along with their "bread" or message and why Stephen says they resist the Holy Spirit.

4. The Temple was not mentioned as being destroyed in any of the Gospel accounts. The Romans destroyed the Temple which fulfills Daniel 9:26 and indicates the Antichrist will be of Roman or European origin.

5. Again, the Temple is Jesus' body. He had the power to lay His life down (die on the cross = destroy the Temple) and pick it back up again (resurrect it on the third day = rebuild it).

I think you got it; the Temple is synonymous with Jesus' body.

 

[mar]

Somebody's confused. I think it's me.

I was responding to TWA dude's question here:

<<Oh, and what was with the earthquake at the moment Jesus died? I don't recall hearing of the Temple splitting open. (Of course the Temple was destroyed by the Romans in 70 C.E.)>>

Sounds like everyone agrees the Romans destroyed the Temple--not the earthquake.

But the movie shows the earthquake destroying a temple...
...and Jesus said he would do so...and rebuild it...

But the resurrection makes sense.

But in the film Jesus does seem to foreshadow the earthquake/destroyed temple.

But maybe I'm making a false correlation.

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Snoopy58]

To the extent that the movie shows "an earthquake," it aligns completely with the Gospels.

To the extent that the movie shows the curtain being ripped apart, it aligns completely with the Gospels.

To the extent that the movie shows the earthquake shaking up the temple, that's a reasonable surmise from what the Gospels say.

If you think that the movie shows the earthquake "destroying" the temple (and I didn't get that impression from the movie, but I'll look closer when I go see it again), then the movie is going beyond history as recorded in the Gospels or elsewhere.

Which is one reason I don't see the "earthquake in the temple" scene as depicting the "destruction of the temple." But I'll take another look.

I always understood that when Jesus referred to "destroy this temple & I will raise it up again," He was referring to His body, although His statement was misunderstood at the time as a reference to the physical temple. While He did, in a different context, refer to the destruction of the Jewish temple, which happened in 70 A.D., I'm fairly certain that He never suggested the destruction of the temple at His death.

 

[TWA Dude]

Part I

Have you asked a Rabbi for an interpretation of Isaiah 52:13-53:12 yet?

Funny you should ask. Since the film began with an alleged quote from Isaiah 53 I was immediately interested. I'm on the road now and the Gideon's Bible doesn't do me much good. Thus I went to the web site of a yeshiva I attended a seminar with:
Link

Partial Quote: I am a Christian, and I was just wondering why Jesus is denied as the Messiah, even though he fulfills every prophecy written regarding the Messiah.
THE AISH RABBI REPLIES:

Thank you for your thoughtful question. For 2,000 years, Jews have rejected Christianity and the idea of Jesus as messiah. It is important to understand why Jews don't believe in Jesus. The purpose is not to disparage other religions, but rather to clarify the Jewish position. The more data that's available, the better-informed choices people can make about their spiritual path.

Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah because:

1) Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.

2) Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah.

3) Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are mistranslations.

4) Jewish belief is based on national revelation.

At the end of this answer, we will examine these additional topics:

5) Christianity contradicts Jewish theology

6) Jews and Gentiles

7) Bringing the Messiah

1) JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES

What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.


2) JESUS DID NOT EMBODY THE PERSONAL QUALIFICATIONS OF MESSIAH

A. MESSIAH AS PROPHET

Jesus was not a prophet. Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry. During the time of Ezra (circa 300 BCE), when the majority of Jews refused to move from Babylon to Israel, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets -- Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.

Jesus appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended.

B. DESCENDENT OF DAVID

The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David!

C. TORAH OBSERVANCE

The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)

Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. (see John 1:45 and 9:16, Acts 3:22 and 7:37)

3) MISTRANSLATED VERSES "REFERRING" TO JESUS

Biblical verses can only be understood by studying the original Hebrew text -- which reveals many discrepancies in the Christian translation.

A. VIRGIN BIRTH

The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.

B. CRUCIFIXION

The verse in Psalms 22:17 reads: "Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet." The Hebrew word ki-ari (like a lion) is grammatically similar to the word "gouged." Thus Christianity reads the verse as a reference to crucifixion: "They pierced my hands and feet."

C. SUFFERING SERVANT

Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the “suffering servant.”

In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews ("Israel") are regarded as one unit. The Torah is filled with examples of the Jewish nation referred to with a singular pronoun.

Ironically, Isaiah's prophecies of persecution refer in part to the 11th century when Jews were tortured and killed by Crusaders who acted in the name of Jesus.

From where did these mistranslations stem? St. Gregory, 4th century Bishop of Nanianzus, wrote: "A little jargon is all that is necessary to impose on the people. The less they comprehend, the more they admire."

Continued...

 

[TWA Dude]

Part II

4) JEWISH BELIEF IS BASED SOLELY ON NATIONAL REVELATION

Of the 15,000 religions in human history, only Judaism bases its belief on national revelation -- i.e. God speaking to the entire nation. If God is going to start a religion, it makes sense He'll tell everyone, not just one person.

Judaism, unique among all of the world's major religions, does not rely on "claims of miracles" as the basis for its religion. In fact, the Bible says that God sometimes grants the power of "miracles" to charlatans, in order to test Jewish loyalty to the Torah (Deut. 13:4).

Maimonides states (Foundations of Torah, ch. 8):

The Jews did not believe in Moses, our teacher, because of the miracles he performed. Whenever anyone's belief is based on seeing miracles, he has lingering doubts, because it is possible the miracles were performed through magic or sorcery. All of the miracles performed by Moses in the desert were because they were necessary, and not as proof of his prophecy.

What then was the basis of [Jewish] belief? The Revelation at Mount Sinai, which we saw with our own eyes and heard with our own ears, not dependent on the testimony of others... as it says, “Face to face, God spoke with you...” The Torah also states: “God did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us -- who are all here alive today." (Deut. 5:3)

Judaism is not miracles. It is the personal eyewitness experience of every man, woman and child, standing at Mount Sinai 3,300 years ago.

5) CHRISTIANITY CONTRADICTS JEWISH THEOLOGY

The following theological points apply primarily to the Roman Catholic Church, the largest Christian denomination, and the one most familiar to the Western world.

A. GOD AS THREE?

The Catholic idea of Trinity breaks God into three separate beings: The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19).

Contrast this to the Shema, the basis of Jewish belief: "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE" (Deut. 6:4). Jews declare the Shema every day, while writing it on doorposts (Mezuzah), and binding it to the hand and head (Tefillin). This statement of God's One-ness is the first words a Jewish child is taught to say, and the last words uttered before a Jew dies.

In Jewish law, worship of a three-part god is considered idolatry -- one of the three cardinal sins that a Jew should rather give up his life than transgress. This explains why during the Inquisitions and throughout history, Jews gave up their lives rather than convert.

B. MAN AS GOD?

Christians believe that God came down to earth in human form, as Jesus said: "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).

Maimonides devotes most of the "Guide for the Perplexed" to the fundamental idea that God is incorporeal, meaning that He assumes no physical form. God is Eternal, above time. He is Infinite, beyond space. He cannot be born, and cannot die. Saying that God assumes human form makes God small, diminishing both His unity and His divinity. As the Torah says: "God is not a mortal" (Numbers 23:19).

Judaism says that the Messiah will be born of human parents, and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, and will not possess supernatural qualities. In fact, an individual is alive in every generation with the capacity to step into the role of the Messiah. (see Maimonides - Laws of Kings 11:3)

C. INTERMEDIARY FOR PRAYER?

The Catholic belief is that prayer must be directed through an intermediary -- i.e. confessing one's sins to a priest. Jesus himself is an intermediary, as Jesus said: "No man cometh unto the Father but by me."

In Judaism, prayer is a totally private matter, between each individual and God. As the Bible says: "God is near to all who call unto Him" (Psalms 145:18). Further, the Ten Commandments state: "You shall have no other gods BEFORE ME," meaning that it is forbidden to set up a mediator between God and man. (see Maimonides - Laws of Idolatry ch. 1)

D. INVOLVEMENT IN THE PHYSICAL WORLD

Catholic doctrine often treats the physical world as an evil to be avoided. Mary, the holiest woman, is portrayed as a virgin. Priests and nuns are celibate. And monasteries are in remote, secluded locations.

By contrast, Judaism believes that God created the physical world not to frustrate us, but for our pleasure. Jewish spirituality comes through grappling with the mundane world in a way that uplifts and elevates. Intimacy in the proper context is one of the holiest acts we can perform.

6) JEWS AND GENTILES

Judaism does not demand that everyone convert to the religion. The Torah of Moses is a truth for all humanity, whether Jewish or not. King Solomon asked God to heed the prayers of non-Jews who come to the Holy Temple (Kings I 8:41-43). The prophet Isaiah refers to the Temple as a "House for all nations."

The Temple service during Sukkot featured 70 bull offerings, corresponding to the 70 nations of the world. The Talmud says that if the Romans would have realized how much benefit they were getting from the Temple, they'd never have destroyed it.

7) BRINGING THE MESSIAH

Maimonides states that the popularity of Christianity (and Islam) is part of God's plan to spread the ideals of Torah throughout the world. This moves society closer to a perfected state of morality and toward a greater understanding of God. All this is in preparation for the Messianic age.

Indeed, the world is in desperate need of Messianic redemption. War and pollution threaten our planet; ego and confusion erode family life. To the extent we are aware of the problems of society, is the extent we will yearn for redemption. As the Talmud says, one of the first questions a Jew is asked on Judgment Day is: "Did you yearn for the arrival of the Messiah?"

Are you allowed to interpret this yourself? If so, what is yours?

I'm sure I'm allowed but I choose not to debate theological issues on message boards.

Dude

 

[TWA Dude]

However, the Christian Bible is superbly supported as a truthful first century account. There is no reason to doubt the Gospels on their bibliography.

There's plenty of archeological evidence and secular texts that corroborate major events in Biblical history, however, the majority can never be corroborated. Who said what, who saw what, what G-d said to whom. These are things that one just has to believe took place as written. Keep in mind that humans are terrible at recalling things that are emotionally significant -- which covers most Biblical events. Jews especially have yearned for the Messiah during times of persecution and hardship. History tells of numerous false messiahs. Humans want to believe that wonderful things are happening -- and that makes them unreliable as witnesses. One needn't be a liar to tell an untruth. IMHO the only one who knows the absolute truth is G-d.

How do you feel about the Koran? Is it the truth? What new sacred text will come up next that "superceeds" all previous ones? How many more "truths" will come up that contradict earlier ones? You believe in your truths and that's fine but I believe in my own. Carry on.

Dude

 

[Jafar]

Everyone is hung up on the temple and the earthquake. What about that raven crap? (My favorite seen in the movie, by the way.)

No where in the bible does a raven come down and eat Gesmas' eyes.

This was Gibson being a little over zealous.

It was taken from the Old Testament. A little over the top for them to throw that in, and it isn't in any crucufixtion story in the New Testament.


Proverbs 30:17

But what does that have to do with the crucifixtion story?

Some of you hard core Jesus people square me away on this one.

 

[TurboS7]

You can take the man out of Hollywood, but you can't take Hollywood out of the man. You are correct there is no place in scripture that you can say a raven plucked the eye out of the unbelieving "cross mate." You said you enjoyed that part so I guess Hollywood made that point.

 

[Timebuilder]

TWA dude:

I may never have suggested this to you, and that's probably because it never came up. There is a great deal of work being done by Jews who believe as we do, that Christ is the Messiah. My bad.

I mailed that list of statements (via the link to the site) regarding the characteristics and standards for the Messiah to Rabbi Ted Simon. I think we will find that he has some interesting insights.

His site.