The non-fence agreement

[luckydog]

Luckydog, if we had gone non-union do you think the SLI would have been better? It could very well have been DOH which would have been worse for FJ.

No, it wouldn?t. The list is only slightly different that a straight DoH list. Longevity = DoH at FJ, it?s only different is on the FLOPs side. For a very large group of FJ pilots it was a DoH list.

You obviously don't understand how the SLI list works. Please contact me and I'll explain it to you.

You?ve done quite enough for us, thank you.

Without a Union, The Flex pilots would get BURNED. Do you really think for a minute that the pilots that stuck with Kenn all of these years would not be rewarded. When DAC bought Flex, it also "acquired legacy costs that did not benefit Flight Options". That quote came from Kenn during the Citation Air fiasco. What makes you thing you are somehow special in Kenn's eyes? If he could purge the Flex list and replace with 100 hour wonders, he would. What stopped him? the 1108.

Most of us were BURNED TO A CRISP because of the 1108.

Yes, I do. Kenn would decide, based on his whim, whether you would have a career or be relegated to the ash heap. The basic pay and benefits for 85-90% of the Onesky pilots would be about 60% of Travel Management. However, based on said whim, 10-15% would be paid more than the highest paid Netjets pilots. That is unacceptable to me. You will never get my max if you give me your min.

In 12 to 18 months you?ll be making 0% of the 60% that TM gets. FLOPS still has 20 airplanes to park, FJ isn?t growing that fast. Someone has to go. Do you think pilots lower on the OnesSky list will stay while those senior are put on the street?

I understand it perfectly, which is why I got involved. Look no further than the Gulfstreams and Globals. That's how seniority works under Ricci. It finally took an arbitrator to put an end to that nonsense. I guess you're ok with Ricci's seniority world??

That ?nonsense? is still quite alive and kicking. ?Vacancies shall be filled by volunteers after an interview and selection process by Flexjet.? Seniority only starts after a candidate is ?selected?. That leaves plenty of room for nonsense.

Do some research, Decertification isn't even an option. Also what do you expect to happen if you could get rid of the union. You think they are going to undo the sli, you think they would just go and fire all the options guys. By the time we even get to anything that could potential be something other than the 1108 there will be a cba, there will be one seniority list. and what, you guys think you could get the 1108 kicked out and then everything would be restored back to order

Don?t be absurd, there is never any going back. I have know idea what would happen and make no claim otherwise.

Very well stated 993. I would only add that in a scenario where the union was decertified and DAC was left to determine SLI, they would still be bound by the "fair and equitable" principle as outlined in the Mccaskill Bond act.
I think that since a Judge has already ruled on the method that the joint committee used, it would be difficult to have his ruling set aside.
I had a simmilar conversation with a member of the SLI committee. It looks like relative seniority was maintained throughout the list.

You either have no mathematical skill regarding fractions or are looking at a different list. Greater than 50% of the FJ pilots are in the last 30% of this list.

 

[luckydog]

Those Gulfstreams were talked about by KR for a quite a while before there was any talk of buying Flexjet, and the Legacy 450/500's were the planned replacement for the Citation X's, where as they are direct competition for the Challenger 300/350's. However, KR gave the both Gulfstreams and Legacy 450/500's to Flexjet anyways and was/is attempting to make the Options pilots give up the protections of the union and go over to Flexjet or face furlough. The term "Whipsaw" applies any time management tries to play one group against another, and that is exactly what he did here, so "Whipsaw" is very appropriate. I realize that it's not the Flexjet pilots fault, but still fact. We got the 401k match back because we were mere weeks away from the grievance hearing that he knew he would lose. As far as the SLI, go back and check my previous posts on the subject, I fully expected that it would go relative percentage, and would have much preferred it too. I was as surprised as anyone else when the results came out. I lost about 5% bidding power, mainly due to being a former Travel Air pilot. I used to have a few original Options pilots in from of me, that were hired after me, now they are going to add a whole bunch more Flexjet pilots to that list too, so yes, I get your frustration. Some groups lost and some groups gained, but overall the longevity (Not DoH) method was the fairest method for the largest number of people. I suggest sitting down with someone who was on the SLI committee with an open mind and ask them to explain what were the considered methods and concerns about each and ultimately why the two sides agreed to the method they used. I wasn't very happy with my new placement either, but I have done just that, and it opened my eyes to what each method would have done, and consequentially I understand and accept it now. The union isn't trying to give any advantage to one pilot group over the other, but KR, RH, JW and others knew that regardless of the method eventually chosen, there would be those who lost and would be very upset, and they will use that frustration with SLI, Fences, or whatever to fuel the decert that KR so desperately wants. I get that you feel like you are getting screwed and understandably have a very myopic view of the union, but why would you support a decert movement? Why do you think that the aviation industry is by far the most highly unionized group? If we lose the union, I will be dusting off my resume too, but I am not too worried about it. I don't mean to sound smug or self righteous, but we barely got much help from the majority of Flexjet pilots in the representation vote after the single carrier determination, and judging by the lack of any desire on the part of so many Flexjet pilots to get involved, I seriously doubt you, El Raton, SPT, PD and the rest will be able to muster the 50%+1 cards needed to make that vote happen after a CBA. Given your apparent situation, I understand why you might want to look for other employment, and in all seriousness, the best of luck to you.

(BTW, I have to agree with you about Shanes too.)

Since the Gulfstreams were mentioned by Kenn during the FLOPs heyday, they should be yours? IF the Lear 85 had actually been delivered would you be equally OK with those belonging to FJ pilots? As it stands, KR talks about a lot of things but for whatever reason never moved forward. Lack of financing, lack of customers, lack of confidence?. I don?t know or care. He bought them after the sale and you guys have half, isn?t that enough? No? You have 75% of the Global and those were always talked about by FJ for years, but no one is trying to claim those seats. The SLI and fence agreement gives you access to every Legacy and CL3X after the CBA. EVERY SINGLE PIC SEAT IS AVAILABLE, you haven?t lost anything. As he 750s go away, they will displace the FJ pilots, I don?t see the issue for you guys.

Whipsaw is when 1 group actively goes against a similar group for their own gain. Since FJ can?t actively do anything about the situation, STOP saying we are part of the problem. Your union couldn?t or didn?t want to stop what went on regarding the transfers and still reaped a reward. FJ is the group that got sawed.

The fact that a few guys from Options are ahead of you after the TA merger is a shame. During the ENTIRE organizing drive the POC reiterated that the list wouldn?t be based on DoH as it would be almost a staple (they have since recanted and tried to rewrite history). If you believe that DoH is fair the list might have merit, I don?t believe that is a fair. Flexjet was growing as FLOPs was shrinking in the early 2000s. This implementation rewards the FLOPs pilots for staying put while penalizing the FJ pilots that have been part of a more successful company. Losing 5% in seniority isn?t bad. Try losing 3 or 4 times that 5% and see how you feel. Spend more than a few minutes to look at the list past your own name, skip way down to the low to mid 400?s. Those guys are CL and LR PICs and have been for 10 years. Now look at the names above them and see what seats those guys hold at FLOPs. Here?s a phrase to help describe their new position: Winner, winner, chicken dinner!

All I see in the replies about SLI is fear. You are afraid of losing what you have. That?s understandable but misguided. The list that has been blessed takes away most of what you were afraid of losing. It would be tough to replace the money and time off of being a Challenger PIC or even a Learjet PIC but that doesn?t matter. As this list is implemented and reaches it natural order, the FJ pilots will be on the P300 mostly in the right seat. How hard is it to replace being a P300 working for FLOPs wages working an 8/7 schedule?
All of that is history. And while the list can?t be changed, the authority to enforce seniority can be taken away. So the integrated list will stand but the names will be removed out of order. Given the choice of 100% chance of losing something worth protecting and a smaller chance of losing, the choice is obvious.

The question isn?t why would I support decert, it?s why would I support the group that has chosen to implement a plan that will at the very best cost me 100s of thousands of dollars over the life of my career? I believe that your union leaders lied to every POC member during the dive and are no better than KR when it comes to honesty. If the 1108 had done as we were led to believe and made an SLI and Fence that preserved some of what the FJ crews had worked for, decertification wouldn?t be on the table. Kind of like when KR chose not to pay the $4M in bonus to FJ. That single choice cost him the election. The choices the 1108 has made could cost them their union.
The vote was close, only 16 votes. Do you think that there are more than 16 guys hired at FJ after 2001 that are reconsidering their vote? And this vote will include ALL the FJ pilots. That includes the guys hired after the sale. How do you think they will vote? And while I?ve only done a small amount of research on this, decert doesn?t look that hard. Try typing ?how to decertify a union? into google. It?s very interesting but remember we?re covered by Airline & Railway rules.

I do believe you are sincere so, good luck as well.



I?m done here for a while. PM me when the next decision is handed down giving FLOPs more of my job. I really can find better things to do with my time than discussing why the people hired at a losing company before I was hired prospering company deserve my job? even if that means hours of looking out the window at the little tiny things down below.


(I can?t believe that the tie comment the idiot made didn?t get him a time out, FI really is a tough place).

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Lucky, I couldn't read past your first paragraph. This is the way Kenn works. You think you are pissed off? BRING IT ON! This MF has been doing this for years. MAN UP!

 

[slowtation capt]

He bought them after the sale and you guys have half, isn?t that enough?

What an as*! BoooooHooooooooo, cry me a fu*kin river d*ck! kr bought airplanes after he bought us, and they should be all ours Are you f*ckin 3 years old what a baby

 

[shanes123]

Guess others are getting fed up with the FJ mentality.

 

[shanes123]

I know I say things that are not politically correct and offend lots of people but I can't help myself these things need to get out there. hopefully there will be some FJ pilots that will get tired of the rest of these A$$es making them look bad. Checking into a hotel recently went something like this. maybe not exact but real close

Hotel worker: who do you work for Flightoptions or Flexjet?
Me: Flightoptions
her: are you guys same company?
Me: sort of theres a merger going on unfortunately
her:not a good thing?
Me: nope
her: seems the ones that are Flex jet are more Full of themselves
Me: LOL you should tell them that
her: no that wouldn't be a good idea
me: their all legends in their own minds
her: laughs

partner I was with heard whole thing. To me this is like having a bunch of bad cops shooting up innocent people with their hands up and following a officers orders. But still get shot. They are making all The cops look bad which is not the case. If I where a Flex pilot I would start calling out these selfless IGMS their making you all look bad. not to just option pilots but to everyone they have contact with. they are degrading the whole profession and their are option pilots that are guilty of this also. ( Global, Gulfstream, red label clowns) Its not about being Pro-Union its about self respect and having a little integrity I could have applied for any of those positions and been selected with a little A kissing and I know a lot of guys that could have done the same but they didn't. This has been said a billion times but the reason Netjets have what they have is because they have a solid group of Professionals that stick together. So do you want to be a profesional and have a similar contract or you want 10% to be paid fairly and the rest of us bottom feeders?

 

[Praetorian]

Lucky,

[FONT=&quot]Now that I[FONT=&quot]'[/FONT]ve finally had a chance to get in front of an actual keyboard, I will respond to you properly and I hope this will be read by others who may feel the same as you do.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]You[FONT=&quot]r[/FONT] basic premise seems to be that since Flex was a growing/thriving company before the acquisition and Options was a dying company, the Flex pilots should have been advantaged during the SLI, but the facts don[FONT=&quot]'[/FONT]t support this argument.
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Prior to the acquisition Flexjet was essentially a store front for Bombardiers products and didn[FONT=&quot]'[/FONT]t need to make money. Much like Raytheon and Textron before it, Bombardier could afford to lose money and offered bonuses and generous schedule options to pilots. When the union (1108) negotiated a great contract for the NJ pilots in 05, Bombardier matched the wages and bought the pilots off. I once toured the Flexjet facility in Waterview. It was staffed with mature, experienced well compensated individuals who seemed to genuinely care about the crews and worked hard to make pilots lives easier out on the line. All of this was expensive and Bombardier could justify taking the losses because they were positioning their product in the marketplace and supporting higher aircraft production rates. But then Bombardier began to have financial problems and began unloading some of its unprofitable businesses. The day after Flex was sold to DAC Bombardiers[FONT=&quot]'[/FONT] stock rose 5.5%.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Contrast this with Opitons which, do to favorable labor costs and an operations center staffed with a collection much younger less experienced workers, was profitable.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Almost immediately after the acquisition Ricci began whipsawing the two pilot groups against one another. You[FONT=&quot]'[/FONT]ve said that, [FONT=&quot]"[/FONT]Whipsaw is when 1 group actively goes against a similar group for their own gain.[FONT=&quot]"[/FONT] That isn[FONT=&quot]'[/FONT]t accurate. Whipsawing is when a single employer pits two employee groups against one another to get what the employer wants. In our case Ricci[FONT=&quot]'[/FONT]s goal was to rid himself of the union at Options and eliminate the costly items which had formerly driven Flex to unprofitably when Bombardier owned it. That meant eliminating the highly paid work force in Waterview, cutting pilot[FONT=&quot]'[/FONT]s bonuses and will, left un-checked, ultimately lead to wage cuts and alterations to the very expensive schedule options the Flex pilots currently enjoy.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]To achieve these goals Ricci began by offering positions to Options pilots at Flex. He knew this would drive down the union[FONT=&quot]'[/FONT]s dues base at Options and would weaken it. He simultaneously began routing all of his new aircraft orders to Flex to make it look more attractive to prospective Options transfer pilots. This was because he wished to ultimately move as many Options pilots to, at the time, non-union Flex as possible, wind down Options [FONT=&quot]and[/FONT] rid himself of the union. With the union gone and with the Flex pilots and whichever Options pilots who were stupid enough to fall into his trap completely at his mercy he would initiate his final move and reduce wages and for all but his chosen few [FONT=&quot]"[/FONT]Red Label[FONT=&quot]"[/FONT] sycophants.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]As for the SLI, I spoke to my friend on the committee again. He told me that on average individual Options pilots saw a 0.03% increase in relative position on the seniority list, while on average individual Flex pilots saw a 0.01% decrease in relative position on the seniority list. I know that many of us can come up with reasons to be angry with how things turned out with the SLI, but given that the most junior pilot on the Options list was hired in 2008 and Flex had been hiring through 2013, I think the average relative positions we ended up with are very fair.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Lucky, an astonishing sense of superiority and entitlement permeates every word you write. The reason there are so many Flex pilots at the bottom of the seniority list is because that[FONT=&quot]'[/FONT]s where their longevity put them. They were simply hired after a lot of other pilots at Options, and within the historical context of what was happening prior to the acquisition (yes DAC the owner of Flight Options bought your company) the Flex pilots are not entitled to jump ahead of other pilots at Options who were hired before them and have more longevity invested.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You speak of decertification as though it were some kind of virtuous undertaking. I take [FONT=&quot]offense[/FONT] because I see you stating that you intend to help launch an attack on my family, my friends and my co-workers. If you were successful you would place all of us at the mercy of a man who has written a book in which he states that it is his intention to place all pilots into two categories, those that will be well compensated and taken care of and those that will be underpaid and encouraged to leave. I suspect that because of my involvement with the union I would fall into the latter category. I[FONT=&quot]'[/FONT]ve spent over 17 years at this company, building my seniority and I will not be forced to the bottom of some other company[FONT=&quot]'[/FONT]s seniority list. When you speak of decertification you offend the sensibilities of every pilot who understands what it[FONT=&quot]'[/FONT]s like to work for this management team without a contract.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You[FONT=&quot]'[/FONT]ve acknowledged that the decertifying the union will not lead to a change in the seniority list, so while it might make you feel good to have the entity you feel wronged you removed, the truth is it would only make you, me and every one of us vulnerable. The union is the pilots organized to try to improve things for all of us, that[FONT=&quot]'[/FONT]s all it is. It[FONT=&quot]'[/FONT]s far from perfect, but it[FONT=&quot]'[/FONT]s all we have. I hope you will consider what I[FONT=&quot]'[/FONT]ve said and will reconsider the path you[FONT=&quot]'[/FONT]ve chosen. [/FONT]

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

So you would choose cronyism over merit and senority? Even if you made it to the IGM club,what makes you think the next azzkisser won't under cut you? Wake up!

 

[Praetorian]

Ok full disclosure, I effed up those numbers. It was 3% and 1%. Sorry.

 

[Imissmypilot]

So you would choose cronyism over merit and senority? Even if you made it to the IGM club,what makes you think the next azzkisser won't under cut you? Wake up!

Bingo.

I know who El Raton is (not literally but rather one of the general group of 25 really screwed over mid pack CL30 Captains) so I do not fault him for point of view. However, we all need to take a step back, breathe a minute and look at the situation as dispassionately as possible. Fact is in the grand scheme of right and wrong, the union is taking the high road and the fact it pisses off guys like luckyb@st@rd is proof.

I'll say it again - we were warned by the POC in the early days of the drive our best option was to organize on our own. Everything they predicted would happen if we didn't is in fact happening. It's not necessarily that these things are inherently bad, they just require a lot more patience and compromise because now Kenn Ricci has the option of pitting us against each other.

It's why he was bragging in the video about forcing the union into filing for single carrier. Go back and watch it with new eyes seeing what you now know was the future he was gloating about. He is one sick megalomaniac.

We have no one to blame but ourselves and Kenn Ricci for what is happening. We can only solve one of those issues on our own.

El Raton, regarding the two choices I think you took it the wrong way. I think what was meant was the only way we are going to get what we deserve is if we are unified. I didn't take it as a threat. The fact is Kenn Ricci will never give you what you deserve because you earned it. If you expect that kind of non-complicated employer relationship you really are better looking elsewhere. However, if you do intend to get what you have earned it will not come without a fight. So you have to then ask yourself if you're up to the fight. If you decide you are up to it, you have to decide if your chances of success alone or with a band of brothers. The ball is in your in court.

You have 12-15 years in this company. Are you really ready to piss it all away because some anonymous poster on a message board "threatened" you or because a guy who has 20 years seniority had his career expectations protected? If the shoe was on the other foot and your longevity wasn't honored you'd be first in line demanding it be protected. You know I'm right. Come on dude, it was going to suck for some of us no matter what and we were the short straw.

Fair sucks but it is fair.