The new SCAB

[rspilot]

You are comparing pay grade today. The legacy carriers have all taken huge cuts in pay over the last four years...the point I was making was that prior to these pay cuts the Major pay was significantly higher than Frontier, Jet Blue, and the other low cost airlines. Due to the success of these low cost airlines taking a large share of flying away from the Majors the pay grades at the Majors have come down significantly so that they may compete.

The only point I was trying to make was that people shouldnt get on someone for taking a job at Mesa. If a guy wants to be a professional pilot and this is his only option than what is wrong with it. Everyone seems to believe that working for mesa brings down the industry than I would also argue that working for Frontier, Jet Blue, or SWA also brought down the Major Airline Industry.

The bottom line is that this is American and these things are happening all the time in every industry....not just Airlines. If you dont like it than quit and start your own business which is what we probably all should do anyway.

Now just so that eveyone understands.....I fly boxes at 30,000 dollars a year and they pay here sucks also...but if I took a job at Mesa...I would be considered a scab.......

PS....I still dont know what F9 means...it is just a key on my computer.

 

[IdRtherBsailing]

F9 is the code for Jet blue I believe

 

[flatspin7]

nope F9 is Frontier... and B6 is JetBlue

 

[Ezralite]

How about a T.O.P.F.A.G. ?

Taking
Other
Pilot's
Flying's
Always
Great

 

[hoover]

Call them people competing for jobs in the marketplace. It happens in this profession and every other profession as well. The only difference is that their have always been more pilots than jobs. For that reason alone pilots, whether collectively or individually, will always have the disadvantage when it comes negotiating pay and work conditions.

 

[IronCityBlue]

fair comparisons

You are comparing pay grade today. The legacy carriers have all taken huge cuts in pay over the last four years...the point I was making was that prior to these pay cuts the Major pay was significantly higher than Frontier, Jet Blue, and the other low cost airlines. Due to the success of these low cost airlines taking a large share of flying away from the Majors the pay grades at the Majors have come down significantly so that they may compete.

The only point I was trying to make was that people shouldnt get on someone for taking a job at Mesa. If a guy wants to be a professional pilot and this is his only option than what is wrong with it. Everyone seems to believe that working for mesa brings down the industry than I would also argue that working for Frontier, Jet Blue, or SWA also brought down the Major Airline Industry.

The bottom line is that this is American and these things are happening all the time in every industry....not just Airlines. If you dont like it than quit and start your own business which is what we probably all should do anyway.

Now just so that eveyone understands.....I fly boxes at 30,000 dollars a year and they pay here sucks also...but if I took a job at Mesa...I would be considered a scab.......

PS....I still dont know what F9 means...it is just a key on my computer.

You are right that the major (legacy) pay was significantly higher than F9, B6 and other LCC's. For a little while, back in 2000. Remember before that most legacies had pathetic first year pay, draconian B scales, and overall pay at or below most LCC pay today for similar size equipment.

2000 came along as did the apex of the peak of pilot negotiating leverage for the last century, the summer of love, etc. and stellar contracts reappeared.

Then a recession happened. Accelerated by an aviation related event we all remember, and sucked the bottom out of the industry. Shortly thereafter, a major adjustment to said contracts took place. Around this same time a few LCC's were doing pretty good. [Remember, MOST LCC's fail and go away. Plenty did during the late 90's and 2000-2001 That's always been the case. Despite their lower than legacy pay.]

Mr. Business Traveler suddenly goes away. Not to say people don't travel for business anymore, but the days of unlimited expense accounts where no one cared if you paid 2000 bucks for a last minute ticket for a city 500 miles away were over. If you could really afford it, you took a biz jet. If not, you waited for a cheaper fare. Or drove. Or teleconferenced. Or just FedExed the danged contract. Or whatever.

Suddenly the legacy's fundamental business model of having 10 last minute business travelers pay for the whole flight while dumping rock bottom fares onto expedia.com, etc. as pure gravy profit were over.

The asteroid had hit the industry and the fallout was a nuculear winter that the legacys weren't built to take. It was evolve or die. This "evolution" of the industry had some major pains, particularly to labor. People's career expectations were cut in half, and then cut in half again. Their retirement expectations were vaporized.

When something like that happens, you look to someone to blame. Plenty of blame was directed towards management, but that never really sticks because blaming management in general doesn't mean anything. Its just blaming a concept. And individual managers never stick around long enough. Its hard to hit a moving target.

So everyone looks around the wasteland of the airline pilot industry and sees destruction and devistation. Everywhere that is except so called regionals and LCC's. The reaction to the regionals is mostly for another thread (see below) but the reaction to LCC's was even more emotional because they fly "mainline" equipment with high load factors. They must be taking our passengers. If it wasn't for them, I could get my retirement and pay scales back, etc. Regionals were hiring pilots in record numbers to fly pax on behalf of their legacy partners while said legacy was furloughing thousands of pilots. Ironic that management was taking advantage of the "scope relief" the legacy pilots provided (and continue to provide) supposedly so they could subsidize those fat pay scales and retirement.

So today's success of so called LCC's must be directly related to pilot pay, the arguement goes. When you bring up the fact that many LCC pilots make as much or more than their legacy counterparts for the same size plane they fly, people try to bring up the short lived pay scales from the summer of love as a obsolete comparison. Nice try. LCC's have always been around, and lots of them, during all parts of the cyclic pilot earning climates.

So back to the scab part of the thread (the original topic afterall). Calling someone a scab because they make less than you justifies your suffering by villifying someone else therefore blaming them. Mesa pilots are not scabs. They neither crossed a picket line or violated someone else's contract to gain or keep flying. They did however accept pay so low it rocked the industry. GJ pilots, on the other hand, appear to have done just that. Trans States supposedly had (still has) a binding contract that entitles them to all holding company flying. Here comes GJ and starts doing holding company flying with other pilots. If the Trans States contract secured that flying, GJ pilots are most definately, without a doubt scabs. Not because they make less. Get it?

 

[§kyye Candy]

...a scab is a strike breaker... is any pilot group who accepts pay and working conditions less than the top tier a scab in spirit? That doesn't make sense either.

IMO: I wouldn't say anyone who accepts less than top tier conditions ~ though I do see your point and it is debatable ~ but definitely someone who already HAS a great contract and isn't willing to fight to keep it (e.g. by voting in lesser work rules/scope/pay etc., even if only for the "new guys" under them) or by accepting the "mgt." point of view; how "lucky" you all are to have a job in this economic environment, etc.)