The new SCAB

[SF340Guy]

SHART

S - $hit
H - Head
A - And
R - Rent
T - Taker

WART

W - Weasely
A - A$$
R - Rent
T - Taker

I like Both!!!

 

[100LL... Again!]

How about type-rated and employed?
What are you offering in return for them abstaining from employment?

 

[A350]

Funny how these "union" clowns all want someone else to give up their ability to earn a living so they can prosper, but they all continue to allow the continual degradation of the profession in the name of getting a few more jets and an upgrade.

Pot, meet kettle.

A350

 

[rspilot]

I would say that based on your definition that Mesa gets less than ASA, Mesa Pilots are SCABS, but wait, ASA and all the other Regionals get less than Horizon so all other regionals are SCABS.....all regionals are accepting less pay than Frontier and Jet Blue thus they are all lowering the bar. Frontier and Jet Blue and Air Tran are accepting less pay than Delta, United, Continental so than Frontier, Jet Blue, and AirTran must be SCABS. I suppose with your logic than If UPS is the top dog in pilot pay than any other pilot accepting less pay is a SCAB because they are lowing the bar for the UPS pilots because management will eventually say your counterparts are only getting this much so we have to cut your pay.

I say that if you have a passion to fly than don't worry about what everyone
else is getting paid and enjoy your passion.....If you don't love to fly...get out now and let those of us that do have a chance.

 

[Master Shake]

How about "Taint". You know, they taint the industry and can be compared to that part of skin between the sack and cornhole. That's duality if I ever saw it.

 

[Jet Raven]

RS,

Maybe you should check airlinepilotpay.com before you say that F9 folks are accepting less pay than the legacys for flying the BUS.

JR

Get your facts straight

 

[rspilot]

American Airlines Airbus FO......117 per hour....Capt....171 per hour.
not sure what F9 means but am sure they accept less than AA's Airbus pay.

 

[buscap]

Bohica

Call them BOHICAs

Bend
Over
Here
It
Comes
Again

And remember, ugly, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Master Shake]

American Airlines Airbus FO......117 per hour....Capt....171 per hour.
not sure what F9 means but am sure they accept less than AA's Airbus pay.

F9 flys A318-19-20 While AA flys the A300. Apples to Oranges my friend.

 

[Jet Raven]

Look out from under the Legacy Tent now and again!

:erm: sorry to highjack.....

RS,

That’s right… lets start comparing wide body pay to narrow body pay to make some convoluted point that has nothing to do with your original “I’m better than you are na na na” point. You made reference to some imaginary world where F9 pays their pilots less than the legacies to fly. We only fly narrow body BUSes. When you compare F9’s hourly rate to the legacies (in the airbus narrow body category), F9’s is higher.

AA F9 NWA UAL USA
737 A319 A320 A320 A320
Capt FO Capt FO Capt FO Capt FO Capt FO

12yr 158 108 157 94 137 93 129 88 138 91


:0 Darn the lack of formatting!

Next thing to consider is the A & B plans. Well there F9 is lacking. Although, even when you ad the so-called A, B, and even the latest C plan in to the mix, the numbers don’t get much better. Even so; F9’s pilot group is addressing this and it has yet to be decided by FAPA (the F9 union) and the company whom have been in negotiations for close to two years and are wrapping it up. I might ad that the talks are amicable.


Now start comparing apples and oranges again. That's OK I'll let it go this time.


JR


P.S. By the way… What’s it like to get paid $25 more an hour to fly the wide body 300.


Remember, arrogance is the futility of a person who has to prove themselves on a daily basis. Most people in the US don’t even know who F9 is. Just think what could happen if they did.

 

[rspilot]

You are comparing pay grade today. The legacy carriers have all taken huge cuts in pay over the last four years...the point I was making was that prior to these pay cuts the Major pay was significantly higher than Frontier, Jet Blue, and the other low cost airlines. Due to the success of these low cost airlines taking a large share of flying away from the Majors the pay grades at the Majors have come down significantly so that they may compete.

The only point I was trying to make was that people shouldnt get on someone for taking a job at Mesa. If a guy wants to be a professional pilot and this is his only option than what is wrong with it. Everyone seems to believe that working for mesa brings down the industry than I would also argue that working for Frontier, Jet Blue, or SWA also brought down the Major Airline Industry.

The bottom line is that this is American and these things are happening all the time in every industry....not just Airlines. If you dont like it than quit and start your own business which is what we probably all should do anyway.

Now just so that eveyone understands.....I fly boxes at 30,000 dollars a year and they pay here sucks also...but if I took a job at Mesa...I would be considered a scab.......

PS....I still dont know what F9 means...it is just a key on my computer.

 

[IdRtherBsailing]

F9 is the code for Jet blue I believe

 

[flatspin7]

nope F9 is Frontier... and B6 is JetBlue

 

[Ezralite]

How about a T.O.P.F.A.G. ?

Taking
Other
Pilot's
Flying's
Always
Great

 

[hoover]

Call them people competing for jobs in the marketplace. It happens in this profession and every other profession as well. The only difference is that their have always been more pilots than jobs. For that reason alone pilots, whether collectively or individually, will always have the disadvantage when it comes negotiating pay and work conditions.

 

[IronCityBlue]

fair comparisons

You are comparing pay grade today. The legacy carriers have all taken huge cuts in pay over the last four years...the point I was making was that prior to these pay cuts the Major pay was significantly higher than Frontier, Jet Blue, and the other low cost airlines. Due to the success of these low cost airlines taking a large share of flying away from the Majors the pay grades at the Majors have come down significantly so that they may compete.

The only point I was trying to make was that people shouldnt get on someone for taking a job at Mesa. If a guy wants to be a professional pilot and this is his only option than what is wrong with it. Everyone seems to believe that working for mesa brings down the industry than I would also argue that working for Frontier, Jet Blue, or SWA also brought down the Major Airline Industry.

The bottom line is that this is American and these things are happening all the time in every industry....not just Airlines. If you dont like it than quit and start your own business which is what we probably all should do anyway.

Now just so that eveyone understands.....I fly boxes at 30,000 dollars a year and they pay here sucks also...but if I took a job at Mesa...I would be considered a scab.......

PS....I still dont know what F9 means...it is just a key on my computer.

You are right that the major (legacy) pay was significantly higher than F9, B6 and other LCC's. For a little while, back in 2000. Remember before that most legacies had pathetic first year pay, draconian B scales, and overall pay at or below most LCC pay today for similar size equipment.

2000 came along as did the apex of the peak of pilot negotiating leverage for the last century, the summer of love, etc. and stellar contracts reappeared.

Then a recession happened. Accelerated by an aviation related event we all remember, and sucked the bottom out of the industry. Shortly thereafter, a major adjustment to said contracts took place. Around this same time a few LCC's were doing pretty good. [Remember, MOST LCC's fail and go away. Plenty did during the late 90's and 2000-2001 That's always been the case. Despite their lower than legacy pay.]

Mr. Business Traveler suddenly goes away. Not to say people don't travel for business anymore, but the days of unlimited expense accounts where no one cared if you paid 2000 bucks for a last minute ticket for a city 500 miles away were over. If you could really afford it, you took a biz jet. If not, you waited for a cheaper fare. Or drove. Or teleconferenced. Or just FedExed the danged contract. Or whatever.

Suddenly the legacy's fundamental business model of having 10 last minute business travelers pay for the whole flight while dumping rock bottom fares onto expedia.com, etc. as pure gravy profit were over.

The asteroid had hit the industry and the fallout was a nuculear winter that the legacys weren't built to take. It was evolve or die. This "evolution" of the industry had some major pains, particularly to labor. People's career expectations were cut in half, and then cut in half again. Their retirement expectations were vaporized.

When something like that happens, you look to someone to blame. Plenty of blame was directed towards management, but that never really sticks because blaming management in general doesn't mean anything. Its just blaming a concept. And individual managers never stick around long enough. Its hard to hit a moving target.

So everyone looks around the wasteland of the airline pilot industry and sees destruction and devistation. Everywhere that is except so called regionals and LCC's. The reaction to the regionals is mostly for another thread (see below) but the reaction to LCC's was even more emotional because they fly "mainline" equipment with high load factors. They must be taking our passengers. If it wasn't for them, I could get my retirement and pay scales back, etc. Regionals were hiring pilots in record numbers to fly pax on behalf of their legacy partners while said legacy was furloughing thousands of pilots. Ironic that management was taking advantage of the "scope relief" the legacy pilots provided (and continue to provide) supposedly so they could subsidize those fat pay scales and retirement.

So today's success of so called LCC's must be directly related to pilot pay, the arguement goes. When you bring up the fact that many LCC pilots make as much or more than their legacy counterparts for the same size plane they fly, people try to bring up the short lived pay scales from the summer of love as a obsolete comparison. Nice try. LCC's have always been around, and lots of them, during all parts of the cyclic pilot earning climates.

So back to the scab part of the thread (the original topic afterall). Calling someone a scab because they make less than you justifies your suffering by villifying someone else therefore blaming them. Mesa pilots are not scabs. They neither crossed a picket line or violated someone else's contract to gain or keep flying. They did however accept pay so low it rocked the industry. GJ pilots, on the other hand, appear to have done just that. Trans States supposedly had (still has) a binding contract that entitles them to all holding company flying. Here comes GJ and starts doing holding company flying with other pilots. If the Trans States contract secured that flying, GJ pilots are most definately, without a doubt scabs. Not because they make less. Get it?

 

[§kyye Candy]

...a scab is a strike breaker... is any pilot group who accepts pay and working conditions less than the top tier a scab in spirit? That doesn't make sense either.

IMO: I wouldn't say anyone who accepts less than top tier conditions ~ though I do see your point and it is debatable ~ but definitely someone who already HAS a great contract and isn't willing to fight to keep it (e.g. by voting in lesser work rules/scope/pay etc., even if only for the "new guys" under them) or by accepting the "mgt." point of view; how "lucky" you all are to have a job in this economic environment, etc.)