The logic of relative seniority

[MCDU]

Unless you did not have a job because you were on the street. Of course, you would exclude those people from the integration.
And of course, if you agreed to legally binding arbitration, and the arbitrator gave his ruling, which you agreed to be legally bound by, you would uphold your legal obligation to comply with that legally binding ruling. Wouldn't you?

It is not legally binding. It was an internal ALPA proposal. Alpa needed an Arbitrator, since it can not get groups to agree on a SLI. You need to do your home work.It was a private matter within ALPA. It was a proposal that failed under ALPA. Even ALPA admits it was a proposal and they even tried to get AWA to change their minds at a meeting in WYE River since it needed both groups to agree on a joint contract that would have implemented the list.

Now, you have furloughed West pilots DOH 2005 that would go ahead of East Captains DOH 1988. The Nic was a private arbitration. The courts will decide and show who is right. Everything the West has predicted has gone wrong. You can not piss of the majority. Especially making a 2005 hire that was there for 3 weeks go ahead of former Capt who got hired in 1988. Nic was a train wreck.

M

 

[Dash Power]

In this merger DOH is a windfall for SW pilots and relative seniority is a windfall for Airtran.

HOWEVER

Relative Seniority does not hurt the career expectations of a SW Pilot but DOH does hurt the career expectations of an Airtran pilot. Thus from my perspective, given those as the the only two choices, Relative Seniority is the *more fair* choice since I cannot get onboard with the idea of advancing one's own career at the expense of another.

DOH is not a windfall for SWA pilots. A staple would be. The two windfalls are relative seniority for AT pilots and a staple for SWA pilots. Therefore somewhere in the middle is what quantitatively can be expected.

Relative seniority is not fair to the SWA pilots simply because of the investment of time.That time represents sweat equity. Even DOH is not fair to the more junior pilots of SWA because of your said career expectations.

The huge pay and QOL benefits will be considered by an arbitrator. So will the 95% strike vote. So will the higher level of job security. This is much more complicated than just relative seniority.

My educated guess is that the middle will have fences with pay and benefit considerations for which side of the fence AT pilots choose to be on. When the fence is jumped or brought down a 10 year AT pilot will be placed where a 10 year SWA pilot sits on seniority. There will be some good seat protection language with limitations and requirements.

My guess it to be good business from GK's point of view that the longer he can compensate AT pilots with AT wages and benefits, the better the bottom line. Gary can do very well with a longer time to merge certificates than to do so quickly.

It would help everyone to remember who exactly is buying whom and who will ultimately have control of these two airlines in just a few months. That whom is Gary Kelly. And Gary's responsibility is to the stockholders, not the AT pilots.

 

[Lonestar]

With that scenario, you take a pilot who was bidding in the top 10% of their F/O's seat, getting ready to upgrade in the next 6-12 months, and throw them on the BACK end of a seniority list, tell them they're not going to upgrade for a decade, if they're LUCKY, and they just lost their Quality of Life, too?

A blended use of Relative Seniority plus Date of Hire plus some kind of ratio that attempts to preserve seats, upgrade expectations, and bidding position for Quality of Life seems to be the way most of these should go to avoid angst. However, no matter what, someone's always going to be ****** off. History has certainly taught us that.

Hey Lear 70, I could swear I addressed these comments with a post Sat night but strangely I don't see it here now. Maybe I just forgot to hit post reply. Please allow me to take exception to your thinking.

The senior FO from your example will make more money, and see a huge increase in QOL, regardless of the seat he sits in. Remember, our most junior rsv line gets 15 days off, and the avg line gets 17 off. Your junior captain will get 10!

Further, every one of your FOs will be LUCKY just to be at SWA (a sentiment I hear they expressed over and over at the Roundup in ATL).

If you think that just because you expected to upgrade in x number of years before the ACQUISITION, that number must still be the case now, you will all be very dissappointed. The benefits in every aspect of your contract will more than compensate for any additional time before upgrade.

You refer to the upgrade to captain as if that, solely, is your FOs' career goal. Didn't most of your FOs leave a captain seat to come to AT for something better (Pay, benefits, QOL)? There is absolutely more to your career expectations that just getting to the left seat and the career path of nearly every AT FO proves that. I'm sure the hundreds of your pilots who tried, unsuccessfully, to get hired at SWA further prove that point.

Having AT FOs upgrading with less years of service than SWA FOs is a great example of 'A WINDFALL AT THE EXPENSE OF THE OTHER GROUP"! In fact, any SLI proposal that delays the upgrade of SWA FOs (the left seat at SWA is absolutely our expectation) for AT upgrades will be a 'WINDFALL AT THE EXPENSE OF THE OTHER GROUP'!

 

[vv100]

Hey Richard, thanks for the confirmation BTW, word is you interviewed twice at SWA.

Care to comment?

 

[RedDogC130]

Maybe at airtran they have is written somewhere, because here at swa it is not. Where does it say you will upgrade at a certain point like in 6-12 months? Nothing is a guarantee...things change, economies crash...age 65 passes, which can delay upgrades...hell when I got here they were at the 6-7 year upgrade which went to 12-15 in the blink of an eye. So now things change at airtran...but please show me where you were garanteed your upgrade at a certain point?

 

[Lear70]

Hey Lear 70, I could swear I addressed these comments with a post Sat night but strangely I don't see it here now. Maybe I just forgot to hit post reply.

You didn't reply on this thread. No posts Saturday night from 1607 until I posted at 2337, nothing deleted, either.

I've already spoken about some things I would find unfair (staple) and letting our MC find a fair MIDDLE GROUND, and as our MC has asked us not to comment, that's really all I'm going to say on the matter.

Hey Richard, thanks for the confirmation BTW, word is you interviewed twice at SWA.

Care to comment?

I already did in another thread last month. Sorry you missed it, it's still there if you'd like to do the research. Unlike most people on this forum, I don't hide behind the anonymity of a keyboard and screen name. My real name has been out there on this forum for years...

Southwest is a great company, I've never been hostile about being turned down because of one, erroneous bad reference on the background check (which I fixed before I interviewed at AirTran and which means, yes, I passed the Southwest interview and all my references were contacted). The interview experience was probably the most pleasant of my career, great people, I have nothing negative to say whatsoever.

AirTran has been able to be VERY choosy in their pilots for the last decade. Lots of new deliveries, explosive growth, and no real pilot hiring at other carriers has let us pick and choose people with spotless records, extensive 121 PIC time, and great personalities. Pilots here tend to go above and beyond to try to get the job done, recent contract issues notwithstanding, and I believe, as others have mentioned, that our cultures are more closely aligned than most people give it credit for.

Southwest pilots have every right to be proud of their company, and as I've said before, I want to make sure that culture is maintained as I believe it's the most important ingredient in Southwest's success. I sincerely hope that whatever SLI solution is found, while not everyone will be happy, that we can all move forward POSITIVELY and GROW the combined airlines into a great future.

Moderator hat on:

If you want to ask someone, me included, PERSONAL questions, you are free to send a PM. Otherwise, please don't hijack the thread.

/mod

 

[Lonestar]

I've already spoken about some things I would find unfair (staple) and letting our MC find a fair MIDDLE GROUND, and as our MC has asked us not to comment, that's really all I'm going to say on the matter.
/mod

Lear, you wrote three or four paragraphs on why DOH wouldn't be fair, yet when I respond to the windfall your group would receive in your scenario, you respond by saying you're respecting your MECs request to refrain from comments? Really?

 

[Lonestar]

AirTran has been able to be VERY choosy in their pilots for the last decade. Lots of new deliveries, explosive growth, and no real pilot hiring at other carriers has let us pick and choose people with spotless records, extensive 121 PIC time, and great personalities. Pilots here tend to go above and beyond to try to get the job done, recent contract issues notwithstanding, and I believe, as others have mentioned, that our cultures are more closely aligned than most people give it credit for.
/mod

I won't argue that your pilots hired in the last 5 or more years have had the qualifications to get hired at any airline, but there are several hundred in your ranks who tried, unsuccessfully, to come to SWA. SWA hires about one out of every four or five interviewed, and each has the qualifications. There's more to it than just PIC time.

On another note, regarding your pilots who tend to go above and beyond to try to get the job done, does that include the those who use their free time while on medical leave to do car work in the driveway?

 

[waveflyer]

It's a strange integration- relative seniority wouldn't be fair to our senior captains- not even close- DOH wouldnt be fair to the junior WN fo's

I see DOH with a ratio down from A mid 1990's hire that leaves about 500 AT Fo's below CJ.

IMHO with the contractual and cultural gains- this is pretty fair and livable- litmus test?
There'd be pilots pissed about it- but both sides would vote it in

 

[say again]

I won't argue that your pilots hired in the last 5 or more years have had the qualifications to get hired at any airline, but there are several hundred in your ranks who tried, unsuccessfully, to come to SWA. SWA hires about one out of every four or five interviewed, and each has the qualifications. There's more to it than just PIC time.
/QUOTE]

Are you saying that people who were rejected by SWA are inferior to those that were hired?