The last straw

[Flybynite]

Age sixty-five helps only those who are captains today, and hurts those that are already living in poverty.

You are only living in poverty because you chose to accept a job that paid less than minimum wage. You applied for the position and knew the pay scale prior to showing up on day one. You got a b!tch, stand in front of a mirror and complain away.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

How old he is is not relevant at all. And they HAD a full career. They knew the rules when they got into this business. They moved up the seniority ladder when those above them left at 60. Now they got there and decided that they didn't like the rules anymore, and they whined enough to get someone to change them. I'm no longer at a regional, and I didn't support changing the rules either. And a lot of people go through hell without whining to the government that their life just isn't fair.

DING,DING,DING, we have a winner! RULES CHANGE, guess what individual pilots and employees in general have little to no say in legislation. This was passed because a few pilots banded together got active and since the industry was already having problems staffing the flying they already had, it passed. You bitch and moan on FI and instead of participating in the only vehicle available to, your union! This should galvanize you into believing that change is possible, and empower you to effect that change that may be necessary, but you won't. I am gonna stay till 65, go to my ALPA meetings and vote to take money and work rules from JR pilots, since they will be too busy pi$$ing and moaning on FI. WHOOHOO more for me and less for you.
PBR

 

[Mookie]

You are only living in poverty because you chose to accept a job that paid less than minimum wage. You applied for the position and knew the pay scale prior to showing up on day one. You got a b!tch, stand in front of a mirror and complain away.

Take note all:

the guy bitching has 4400hrs and guy who has the best perspective has 11,000hrs. Who EARNED it???

(and i don't give a rats ass what the 4400hr guy did before airline flying. apples to oranges. all of us had something we did before, but unless it translates directly to seniority at an airline, it's not germain to the topic at hand.)

Mookie

 

[PCL_128]

Take note all:

the guy bitching has 4400hrs and guy who has the best perspective has 11,000hrs. Who EARNED it???

The most "perspective?" Did you have to stifle a laugh as you wrote that? No, he doesn't have any more perspective, just a lot to gain by changing the rule. The senior guys raped the junior guys. As Prater might say, "Takin' it back......from the junior pilots!"

 

[COOPERVANE]

O.K.....But....But...............thats the last straw......


I could burn down the building..........

 

[rstev1955]

The bill never would have even made it to the floor of the House for a vote if ALPA had stood by the membership and opposed the change. The Congressman that introduced the legislation was ALPA's biggest buddy on the Hill, and he was Chairman of the Committee that had the power to hold this up for quite a while.

WRONG. It was only a matter of time, and there is nothing ALPA or any other lobby group could have done about it in the end.

Instead, Prater screwed everyone over and forced his own agenda.

John Prater did not force the MEC Chairmen to vote the way they did. Only two MEC Chairmen voted no. Mine Did. Did yours? Maybe that is the person you ought to blame.

 

[PCL_128]

WRONG. It was only a matter of time, and there is nothing ALPA or any other lobby group could have done about it in the end.

Your opinion is not supported by the facts. If you understood ALPA's relationship with certain members of Congress, then you would realize that this could have been delayed for quite some time if ALPA was so inclined. If Duane were still in office, then the age would still be 60 today.

John Prater did not force the MEC Chairmen to vote the way they did. Only two MEC Chairmen voted no. Mine Did.

Your information is inaccurate. Only two MEC Chairmen voted all of their votes NO, but several of them also split their votes, voting some NO and some YES. Prater used a BRP that he appointed with biased members to provide slanted information to the EC and EB to get them to vote the way he wanted. He also used his hand-picked BRP members to craft a biased poll question that he could use to twist their members' own words to support his little obsession to change this rule.

Did yours? Maybe that is the person you ought to blame.

I do partially blame him, and as a member of the PCL MEC, I brought a resolution telling him to vote NO. It's a long story about how that all played out, but suffice it to say that he lied to the MEC members about his own feelings on the issue, claiming that he was undecided about how he was going to vote, and then later admitting that he was a major supporter of the change from the beginning. He only admitted this after already having submitted his resignation. I'm no longer at PCL, but thankfully the membership now has a much better MEC Chairman that can actually be trusted.

 

[xjhawk]

selfish A$$HOLE IS WHAT simho is, let me tell you, you fit right in with the rest of the idiots who are only pissed that this bill went through because your seniority will not be moving faster up the list. The only complaints that I hear are that there will not be as much movement because of this. Guess what, sometimes you have to do the right thing now and wait for the benefits later. Guess what, now you will have medical when you are 60-65. You will also not have to wonder how you will make it through retirement on what you have now. Guess what, give it up and move on. I know there are pleanty of guys who will still hang it up when they feel they are financially able to do it. Look at the senior NWA pilots, they kept most of their retirement, so why would they stay?

 

[PCL_128]

Guess what, now you will have medical when you are 60-65.

Guess what? I already had medical from 60-65 because it was in my contract! Maybe you should spend your time trying to make those sorts of improvements rather than trying to change the rules.

 

[ex j-41]

You are only living in poverty because you chose to accept a job that paid less than minimum wage. You applied for the position and knew the pay scale prior to showing up on day one. You got a b!tch, stand in front of a mirror and complain away.

I guess i was mislead thinking that the previous generation would have had the integrity to uphold reasonable working conditions and contracts. I was wrong to think that you would have had the backbone to stand up for someone other than yourself and demand we get paid fairly. I guess it is up to todays generation to make sure that future pilots have a career they can be proud of.

 

[JPAustin]

Yes it sure does. It gives you 5 more years of employment.

THAT, is a perfect example of how the one-track, narrow-minded elitists that dictate ALPA, think. All the Age 65 thumpers need to be the professionals like they have always been and realize that safety is the number one trait of pilot professionalism. Don't blind yourselves by the money or your ego at the expense of safety! Well, too late for that now.

 

[CFI2766]

THAT, is a perfect example of how the one-track, narrow-minded elitists that dictate ALPA, think. All the Age 65 thumpers need to be the professionals like they have always been and realize that safety is the number one trait of pilot professionalism. Don't blind yourselves by the money or your ego at the expense of safety! Well, too late for that now.

You can't be serious...It is delusional to believe that there is any serious opposition that is genuinely based on safety concerns. Let's not kid ourselves: junior pilots are predominately pissed about this because they see it as a career stagnation issue.

I'm not thrilled that I'll probably be stuck where I'm at for two or more extra years, but changing the rule was and is the right thing to do. To not change the rule would have continued a practice of age discrimination, plain and simple.

If I chose to work until I was 65, I believe that it would be an improvement to my lifetime earnings to be able to work as a line-flying pilot.

 

[ToiletDuck]

Selfish?
Your dad gets 5 more years at 160k and we get 5 more years at 30!

Age sixty-five helps only those who are captains today, and hurts those that are already living in poverty.

$30k? Where the hell do you work? Secondly as Albert Einstein said, "Compound interest is the greatest force in the world". If you can put a little aside and not touch it you'd be amazed at what those 5 years would do. Plus if you did decide to stay in you'd be one of those 10 day a month line holders so it would be more like a hobby.

 

[Poahi]

Has Flightinfo banned polls? I sure would like to see the groups attitude toward it and Prater's decision to support it.

 

[OCP]

Has Flightinfo banned polls? I sure would like to see the groups attitude toward it and Prater's decision to support it.

Yeah they took out the option for some reason.

 

[JPAustin]

Are you kidding me?

You can't be serious...It is delusional to believe that there is any serious opposition that is genuinely based on safety concerns. Let's not kid ourselves: junior pilots are predominately pissed about this because they see it as a career stagnation issue.

I'm not thrilled that I'll probably be stuck where I'm at for two or more extra years, but changing the rule was and is the right thing to do. To not change the rule would have continued a practice of age discrimination, plain and simple.

If I chose to work until I was 65, I believe that it would be an improvement to my lifetime earnings to be able to work as a line-flying pilot.

I think it is sad that many people are only looking at the monetary side of the equation. Whatever happened to the safety issues? I am merely bringing up facts of situation. I seem to remember that one of the soap boxes ALPA stood on AGAINST Age 65 was safety of flight. So before you get on your "you can't be serious" soap box, look into the non-monetary issues. I mean, come on, that is one HECK of statement to make that "it is delusional to think that there is serious opposition that is genuinely based upon safety concerns". Safety of flight had been one of the number one concerns when ALPA was against Age 65!

 

[bailout]

That's because it was the only leg they had to stand on and they knew it. If they inject 'Safety' into the equation, it brings fear of accidents.

 

[Caspian27]

To me it's all about 1.95%

The 1.95% from these senior Captains about to hit 60 is tremendously more than the junior regional guys 1.95%. It seems to me that if a majority of ALPA members didn't want this, the only reason for the change is more money in the coffers.

All the more reason that those of us who are regional pilots need our own, separate union working for our best interests. ALPA has made it clear that they support the major airline pilot over the regional pilot.

As for my personal opinion on what this does to my career progression? I think it's presumptuous to assume that life as we know it will cease to exist. I'll still get paid to do what I love. Another few years at the regionals still beats the desk I flew before I was a pilot any day.

 

[CitationUltra]

This age 65 bill should be the last straw for all regional ALPA pilots. This new bill MOST affects regional airline pilots. It was HURRIED through congress by ALPA, against the wishes of the majority of ALPA pilots and nearly all of the regional pilots.
I challenge all ALPA MEC’s to construct a resolution to succeed from ALPA and either create a new REGIONAL pilot union or join a union more in tuned with the regional airline pilots needs. You owe it to yourself and to your airlines pilot group to give your money to an organization that may actually care about you.

Fool.

 

[mrnolmts]

... I challenge all ALPA MEC’s to construct a resolution to succeed from ALPA ...

You probably meant "to secede", as "to succeed" doesn't really fit...

 

[JPAustin]

To me it's all about 1.95%

The 1.95% from these senior Captains about to hit 60 is tremendously more than the junior regional guys 1.95%. It seems to me that if a majority of ALPA members didn't want this, the only reason for the change is more money in the coffers.

All the more reason that those of us who are regional pilots need our own, separate union working for our best interests. ALPA has made it clear that they support the major airline pilot over the regional pilot.

As for my personal opinion on what this does to my career progression? I think it's presumptuous to assume that life as we know it will cease to exist. I'll still get paid to do what I love. Another few years at the regionals still beats the desk I flew before I was a pilot any day.

Interesting point, I didn't think of that one. That will be more loot in the coffers.

 

[Flybynite]

I guess i was mislead thinking that the previous generation would have had the integrity to uphold reasonable working conditions and contracts. I was wrong to think that you would have had the backbone to stand up for someone other than yourself and demand we get paid fairly. I guess it is up to todays generation to make sure that future pilots have a career they can be proud of.

You voluntarily applied for a job that paid poverty wages. You voluntarily took the job knowing full well what the pay scale was. You voluntarily continue to work at a job with poor pay and horrible working conditions. You are the one who needs to demand to be paid fairly.

So after all that you have volunteered for, how should I demand that you get paid fairly?

 

[JPAustin]

I have a solution to all of this -- everyone get a day job, be home at night, and get the weekends off!

 

[Kaman]

I think that many of you that are reacting to this rule change are ignorant of history. The age 60 rule was instituted for no other reason, except anti-labor/union.
When Quesada took over as FAA Administrator he was in the pockets of Juan Trippe and all the other airline cronies of the late 50's. They wanted to lower their costs by lowering their salary structure. The age 60 rule was trumped up to get rid of all the high-dollar earning pilots on the seniority lists of TWA, Pan Am, EAL, etc...No extensive study was conducted, nor was any data collected to support a mandatory airline pilot retirement age.
Now, the airlines are hurting for pilots and will absorb high costs associated with training a large group of new-hires. Age 60 is being changed for no other reason, but financial expediency. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with safety or ICAO alignment (which is also a crock...screw globalization, but thats another issue). The whole thing stunk before and it stinks again. We as pilots are being manipulated and duped at the same time...AGAIN.

Regards,

ex-Navy Rotorhead

 

[PCL_128]

Kaman, nobody gives a sh*& why the rule was instituted in the first place. Most of us are well aware of the history, but that's not relevant to today's discussion. What matters is how it will affect things today.

 

[JPAustin]

I think that many of you that are reacting to this rule change are ignorant of history. The age 60 rule was instituted for no other reason, except anti-labor/union.
When Quesada took over as FAA Administrator he was in the pockets of Juan Trippe and all the other airline cronies of the late 50's. They wanted to lower their costs by lowering their salary structure. The age 60 rule was trumped up to get rid of all the high-dollar earning pilots on the seniority lists of TWA, Pan Am, EAL, etc...No extensive study was conducted, nor was any data collected to support a mandatory airline pilot retirement age.
Now, the airlines are hurting for pilots and will absorb high costs associated with training a large group of new-hires. Age 60 is being changed for no other reason, but financial expediency. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with safety or ICAO alignment (which is also a crock...screw globalization, but thats another issue). The whole thing stunk before and it stinks again. We as pilots are being manipulated and duped at the same time...AGAIN.

Regards,

ex-Navy Rotorhead

Ahem...

Allow me to enlighten you to one of MANY studies about pilot age and safety, in particular with the NORMAL duty patterns associated with flying (and don't give me any of the "the more senior you are the better the schedules are" bull):

http://cf.alpa.org/internet/projects/ftdt/alpmag/SLEEPLSS.html

UH OH!!! It seems that this is an ALPA ARTICLE!!!

 

[Kaman]

Ahem...
I wasn't referring to the current NPRM my friend. I was referring to the inside deals that resulted in the original age 60 rule. As much as I support ALPA, it's ideals and it's vision for the piloting profession. ALPA had little if any real influence on this current rule-making either. Unfortunately, much of the cronisim that drove the original rule are alive and well. Any studies, papers or speeches are nothing but feel good propoganda to make the rank and file feel like ALPA national is doing something.

 

[JPAustin]

Ahem...
I wasn't referring to the current NPRM my friend. I was referring to the inside deals that resulted in the original age 60 rule. As much as I support ALPA, it's ideals and it's vision for the piloting profession. ALPA had little if any real influence on this current rule-making either. Unfortunately, much of the cronisim that drove the original rule are alive and well. Any studies, papers or speeches are nothing but feel good propoganda to make the rank and file feel like ALPA national is doing something.

Agreed. To be honest with you, I was reading two other posts along with yours (the other two being very PRO Age 65 and citing safety as no concern) and I admit, I misplaced my tone onto you, as well as the article. Man, thats twice today I screwed up someones tone. My bad and I apologize. I have re-read your response and I see that you are simply pointing to the croniism of it all as drivers for the NPRM and its economically derived history.

I just happen to be a huge safety pundit, so when I read other posts saying safety has nothing to do with Age 65 (and everything to do with their bank accounts), I get irascible. I know your point wasn't that though.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Kaman, nobody gives a sh*& why the rule was instituted in the first place. Most of us are well aware of the history, but that's not relevant to today's discussion. What matters is how it will affect things today.

.......... some of us do care about the history of the age 60 issue..... The fact is, ALPA initially opposed age 60 because the 60% Afunds hadn't been negotiated yet. Then after the elephants (mainline pilots) had negotiated 60% FAE Afunds, ALPA decided to oppose any change to age 60.....

.....along comes 911 and BKs and these magical 60% FAE Afunds disappear......guess what happens next....The elephants realize that they will have to work past age 60, so the support flip flops yet again.... nothing magical....just follow the money....

....never had anything to do with safety....like most issues, it is all about the money....

 

[vtech]

Safety of flight had been one of the number one concerns when ALPA was against Age 65!

"Safety of flight" had NOTHING to do with the rule being instituted. The rule was instituted for economic reasons. "Safety" was the convenient reason argued AFTER the rule was instituted. PERSONAL economics is the egocentric argument of those who are now infuriated because the rule has been changed. Things change. If that comes as a surprise to you, get in touch with reality. Bitch and moan all you'd like. See if that does you any good. Plan for the future. Expect things to change including your expectations. Plan for the worst and hope for the best. Good luck to ya if you're planning on all your dreams to come true.