the hores are out!

[airspeed]

Just a msg to all the "furloughed airline pilots and people that are already retired" I fly as a contract pilot, am very qualified and current and this is how I make a living. Every different aircraft commands a different day rate and although it may seem expensive to some its the price to pay if the person/company does not want to hire a fulltime crew. What makes me sick is you people that come in and say you'll work for practically nothing and do anything to fly because you have no shame. When the owners or companies of these planes see you'll work for nothing then buddy your killing my business. Did I kill yours??? No, I didn't call your airlines and say that you work for 100K but I'll do it for 50K! Thats what makes me sick.

 

[JumpJetter]

Now you know how we feel about regional airlines......

 

[C-5 MEM]

JumpJetter

Why do you say regionals are causing problems? What airline do you work for? I tell you one thing, I don't like my pay and just because we don't have those big pay scales don't blame your problems with your airline as a result of regionals. If I am not mistaken its management like UAL and Delta who calls us at ACA to fly for them. I don't see regional pilots causing mainline pilots to lose there jobs. I see management causing mainline pilots to lose there jobs. Don't blame regionals.

 

[JumpJetter]

C141FE

You're right. You're are getting paid exactly what you deserve. Start, <20K/yr. I don't know what I was thinkin'...

 

[Bluto]

Regionals?

I wonder if you felt the same way when you were flying the Brasilia. Or did you fly it for a major? Oh, and I'm sure you made what you were worth then, too. Right?

 

[Timebuilder]

Aren't the low-cost-of-operation regionals generating the operating money for their parent airlines?

 

[cl-65link]

At NWA, the only profitable part of the operation , right now, is Pinnacle and Mesaba. NWA plans on losing approximately $500 million next year.

 

[dsee8driver]

Lame....

JumpJetter Now you know how we feel about regional airlines......

Looks like from your experience you went from military to a Major. Maybe if you had to work at a regional you would not think the way you do. Would love to see how long your major airline would be around flying an md80 or whatever jet you fly(if not furloughed) into a market that currently is served with a Brasilia and is barely full? Instead of making flamebait comments you should think about how many of the passengers on your jet came into your old fashioned, need improvement hub and spoke system so you can take them elsewhere.

 

[C-5 MEM]

I started working at ACA last July. Since then I was called back to active duty where we have numerous pilots furloughed ranging from NWA,Delta,American and US Air. Not one has said anything about regional airline pilots taking there jobs. As a matter of fact they have asked me to walk there resumes in at ACA which I did.
Right now ACA stock is around 11 dollars a share compaired to UAL which is 2 dollars. I don't want a pat on the back from anyone since it appears that regionals are doing well right now, but that is due to a low payment to its employees.

 

[Brother Francis]

Required Reading

Atlas Shrugged, Ayn Rand.

 

[46Driver]

Jumpjetter,
ASA, Comair, ACA, etc are all full of Marine pilots - if you insist on being a jack@ss, take notes from the LtCol and hide the fact that you were a Marine so you don't embarrass the rest of us.

 

[rjcap]

Atlas Shrugged, Ayn Rand.

The perfect book too read to understand this industry and what is happening and going to happen.

Jumpjetter where did you fly the EMB 120 ???

Hows furlough life treating you ??? Your obviously bitter.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Originally posted by JumpJetter
Now you know how we feel about regional airlines...

There're quite a few furloughed mainline guys at my "regional" airline. I hope they have attitudes better than yours...otherwise they're going to make really annoying first officers.

Many civilian-only pilots see ex-military airline pilots as self-centered, arrogant pricks. I have tried very hard to discourage this line of thinking. You're not helping my argument, sir.

By the way, Airspeed, what is a "hore?" And was it your intent for this thread to be thinly-veiled flame bait, or did it just work out that way?

 

[Rick1128]

Airspeed, I agree that there are some out there that will hoe themselves out and hurt our livelihood. Unfortunately they ignore that fact that we have to pay for our own recurrents, insurance, etc.

With the insurance requirements these days, it is difficult for most operators to use anyone they want. But I have found a couple of operators who used my resume to meet insurance and then used a pilot who didn't meet insurance requirements. It will get interesting when they have a problem.

The rest of you guys, you have no idea about what what we do in this part of the industry.

 

[cornbread]

Judging by his silence Jumpjetter MAY have learned a lesson.
When there are a bunch of super mil pilots out there, JJ has to step up and TRY to misrepresent them.

What happened JJ. Was it being treated like royalty, or no, maybe having your jet preped by a CC, or was it being strapped in by the CC, maybe the controllers holding your hand. Something made you bitter. I am sorry you got furloughed, truely. But the regionals aren't your whipping boy.

It is mil pilots like you (that lack humility and act as if you are the only one in the world that could have POSSIBLY flown such a neat pointy jet) that make the civ/mil issue an issue. I have a good bud, USNA grad with Jet grades and excellent skills that didn't get jets. Chances are, you got jets cuz you got lucky CUZ. Life is 70-90% timing.

The sooner you figure that out and drop your attitude the sooner you may make friends (besides your Harrier bubbas and frat buddies).

 

[starvingcfi]

"That's when the whores come out. Prancin' around and shakin' their little bee-hinds."

haha. i love that quote

 

[CatYaaak]

What makes me sick is you people that come in and say you'll work for practically nothing and do anything to fly because you have no shame. [/B]

Agreed Airspeed. As an ex-corporate/current airline guy who spent 9 months on furlough last year before being hired by a new company, the one thing I never considered was going out and screwing the cororate guys by undercutting the going market rates for contract pilots. It's the height of hypocricy for a major airline furloughee to whine about how they are being "undercut" by regional pilots because they fly for less, while at the same time hoe-ing themselves out in a different sector of commercial flying.

The irony seems completely lost on them; that these mostly union-members, who understandibly go ballistic at what scabs do and the downward pressure on wages they have, are essentially doing the same thing. They have been so brainwashed into believing that the "market rate" for pilot services is driven soley by what a union negotiates in a contract, that upon entering a union-free sector of aviation, they believe that no rate exists at all. This is convenient, for it allows them to remain "guilt-free" in their own minds. No unions = no blacklists to worry about no matter what you do.

Chalk it up to ignorance. The majority of major airline pilots have no idea to the real nature of true corporate flying (confusing it wih charter, fractionals, etc), and the vast majority are completely clueless when it comes to Independent Contract flying, the going rates for acting as PIC/SIC on different types of equipment, or where to find out what they are in the first place.

When I was the Chief Pilot for a small corporate operation and occasionally needed a standby SIC, there were a few airline guys around offering to do it for amounts like $200 a day, when the going rate back then for that type of aircraft in the right seat was twice that amount. Frankly, I found it insulting to the profession that they figured the job (and consequently my passengers) were worth so little, so needless to say they were shown the door, and a couple of 1500 hr. line service personnel working for the FBO we were based at got the training and right seat check-outs in their first jet instead. They were paid the $400 per day while out on a trip, whether flying or sitting in the hotel. That's just the way it works.

I promise you airspeed, you didn't see me out there hoe-ing myself when I was furloughed, nor will you if it happens again.

 

[LR25]

Good post Airspeed.

I dont think its flame bait at all, this is a valid concern.

JJ doesnt understand that the reason that "regional" pilots make less money is becuase of this excact thing.

Why should a regional airline give more money, if another regional is paying half what they are paying there people.

Sure, you can eventually make a descent wage at a regional, but it doesnt hold a candle to what some mainliners make.

But, I think things are going to be different in the future thanks to the RJ revolution.

 

[JumpJetter]

First, please go back and read the very first post. As usual almost every thread on this board diverts on to a completely different subject. Now, I did start it. Funny sarcasm does not come across well on this board. It’s pretty much impossible to do unless you are a very good writer, which I’m not.

The very first post is either flame or a guy who is generally frustrated. He sees his work basically being “whored out” (his words) to someone or others who are willing to do it for far less money. Is that not why airlines are increasingly using Regional Jets? I was trying to draw a parallel (although in hindsight my sarcastic flame did not “make the leap”) between more RJs flying routes that mainline jets used to fly. If RJ pilots where paid on a scale that mainline pilots make (WHICH THEY DESERVE!) would the regional carriers or the mainline operate the RJs? Or would they be operated at all?

I, like I’m sure many others, took a regional airline job for the hours, with hopes of getting on with a major airline. And it worked. I’m as guilty as any. What regional pilots are paid (especially starting pay) is ridiculous. While I was flying at the regional, a unionized group of city bus drivers where on strike because of pay and benefit complaints. These guys started at 55K a year!! Now, they had to work in a big, expensive city, but give me a break! Almost anybody can figure out a bus in a matter of minutes (somebody will disagree I’m sure). Airline pilots are probably the most regulated employee group in the nation. Think of all the sacrifices you made (and continue to make) in pay, time away from family etc., to get that first 121 job. You/WE deserve more.

Now, it’s never gonna happen. IMHO. We just love to fly too much. People will do it for free. Especially, if they can get the experience that may eventually land them a job where they get paid what they deserve!

Anyway, I guess my case is, it’s frustrating to not be able to make a “living wage” given your experience, training, knowledge and skills. In fact after furlough, I did not seek to return to the regional airline. The pay is just too low. I found other things to do.

Have a nice day.

 

[Typhoon1244]

As usual almost every thread on this board diverts on to a completely different subject. Now, I did start it. Funny sarcasm does not come across well on this board. It’s pretty much impossible to do unless you are a very good writer, which I’m not.

Apology accepted.

If RJ pilots where paid on a scale that mainline pilots make (WHICH THEY DESERVE!) would the regional carriers or the mainline operate the RJs? Or would they be operated at all?

Good questions. I think RJ's would probably exist even if the guys flying them made $90/hour. There were just too many mainline routes where MD-88's were carrying nineteen people. If I may draw an analogy from military aviation, it's just like the post-Korea assumption that fighters no longer needed guns. We eventually realized that there will always be a need for an inexpensive, close-in weapon...just as there will always be a need for smaller-capacity jets/turboprops.

We wouldn't even be talking about this if Delta (for example) had bought RJ's instead of ASA and Comair. Of course, I'd probably also be out of a job right now...