The history of "Scabs"

[Cardinal]

Les, after drawing some inferences, I estimate that you make in the neighborhood of $180,000/year as a senior 737 or junior 757 captain. Am I wildly off? So tell me, to what exactly do you ascribe that salary? Do you really think that you are "worth it"? Do you really think that programming an FMS and making a decision from time to time is so rare a skillset that your airline couldn't find hundreds that would do it for less? Do you really think that there is anything between you and the food stamp line other than the organized labor thuggery that brought you that contract? Because that union inflicted unpleasantness is what it takes.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

well, I hope nobody labels me a "scab"..??

I certainly would never cross a picket line to fly an airplane while guys are sticking thier necks out to make a better life..I dont like flying THAT much....but then again I never wanted to join a Union either! - hence never the desire to work for an airline...

I guess each way has it's pluses and minuses..

To each his own.

Corporate life without threats of job loss? Of course not. I am one of the fortunate to have a severance guarantee, stock options, etc...but I admit this is rare and I am truly lucky. However, I would feel MUCH more comfy in any corp or frac gig right now than any airline...Its nice to see they MAY be coming back to life - Lord knows I would love to see my airline friends back at work....but, as many of them have told me, all its gonna take is another 9/11 and WHAM, back in the toilet for years...as a matter of fact, I know 2 who went fractional and WONT go back because of the stability problem. Now, we are in the WRONG business is we are looking for stability...but I will take the corp side myself...

And Cardinal, I certainly wasn't trying to compare paychecks and experience with you....but since you brought it up.....when I had your time I flew a King Air 200 and made 48K/yr.....now thats about...ummm...HALF the size of the mighty 1900....so with your size logic I should have made...ummm..HALF the bucks you make...You pulling down 96K this year?

 

[Cardinal]

Thank you for the civil response. Now hand over the fax number of that King Air operator and no one will get hurt...Seriously, these days people aren't exactly rioting in the streets over the lack of pilots, King Air PIC at 1500 hours is a significant accomplishment.

 

[VFR on Top]

Scabs? Isn't that that medical comedy on NBC?

 

[siucavflight]

I like scabs, they taste good.

 

[Boeingman]

A few comment from someone who lived through and walked during a nasty (and completely unsuccessful) ALPA strike.

Aside from the thread drift, the term scab as it applied to strikebreakers was coined in the 1800's when the railroads went on strike. The RR companies imported thousands of Asians who, during the ocean crossings had deficient diets (fruits and vegetables) that created skin lesions. The term was used by the striking RR workers seeing the condition of the people as they showed up for work.

A couple of other comments. Could someone answer the question why so many scabs on the "list" are ex ALPA members? Does that not concern anyone? It sure concerns me.

To the person who wrote about the CAL pilots suing ALPA, remember there have been many ALPA members in good standing that have sued ALPA for millions. It happened at UAL, it has happened at CAL with the O'Neil group. They were brother striking pilots BTW. It is occurring now with the RJDC.

It is comical to see the chest thumping and rhetoric from some neophytes here on the forum. I can guarantee you that no one can predict who will cross a picket line. I can vividly remember some real hard nose pilots that blew through the picket line in a heartbeat. And some others that stayed out for the duration that shocked me.

FSB99

I can assure you sir that the CAL scabs could care less they are not "forgiven". Many crossed due to a real axe to grind with ALPA in the first place. Your ideals are so far from meaning anything to these people it is funny. However, what you do accomplish in your thinking does nothing to promote the unity that is required to attain a decent industry contract. I have flown with numerous examples of non scab CAL pilots who concern me more than the strikebreakers.

As far as Jack London. If anyone reads the history of this guy and espouses his writings they are a fool. London was a devote socialist.

P.S. I spent 25 months on a picket line so before some moron decides to cast labels on my thinking, reread the first line carefully.

 

[EOpilot]

Boeingman:

Thank you for the attempt at getting this thread back on the rails, but if you had started from the beginning of the thread, you'd see that first use of the term "scab" to define a strikebreaker predates the construction of the first railroad by about 25 years.

So your explanation of the origin of the word is not only quite a stretch, but impossible.

As for Jack London, you're right. He was a socialist. Therefore he was pro-labor. Therefore he gets the attribution for a poem about scabs written years after his death.

 

[CatYaaak]

Hoo Boy

..."Or join the corporate ranks and drive down the salaries where so many arrogant anti-unionists call home."...

This has to be the funniest, most ill-informed statement I've seen in months.

The superior pay and benefit packages in the corporate world among Fortune 100 flight departments was achieved over the decades by demonstrating the value and worth of what they offer to the company, and negotiating accordingly with an eye to what the coporate "industry standard" has been. Salaries have almost never failed to rise, and applicants who offer to "do it for less" in the naive hope that it will elevate their chances are quickly shown the door by the Department Manager. For one thing, it shows that the applicant doesn't know jack about the world of corporate flying, hasn't bothered to find out what type of wages are standard, or the relationship between a company's management and it's pilots.

And there's more than a little irony in your statement given recent history, you being a die-hard, airline unionist and all (although it probably pre-dates your experience so you wouldn't remember). I'll provide some: Beginning about 10 years ago the fractionals began expanding rapidly, hiring gobs of pilots to fly corporate-type aircraft in a quasi-corporate operation. In many ways, competing with established corporate flight departments.

In large part, these newbie fractional pilots were drawn from the regional airline pilot ranks (ALPA members or wannabes), hundreds of them..pilots in search of stepping-stone jet time to make themselves competitive in their race for a mainline job, since back then the regionals were operating only turboprops like Brasilias, Jetstreams, and of course the venerable Beech 1900.

In their breathtaking ignorance, these "union-boys" accepted these jobs flying the exact same equipment on the same type of missions as their bona-fide corporate counterparts, but for about HALF THE PAY as what the corporate world industry standard was. And for the "privelege" of making these ridiculously sub-standard wages, they PFT-ed (and still sign training contracts) for their SIC check-outs...something unheard of in the corporate world for anything but a shoestring, laughingstock operation.

But by far the funniest thing was hearing them yakking in FBO lounges, about how GREAT it was while trying to recruit coporate pilots to join their ranks (I always wondered if they got a free set of steak knives or something if they succeeded). In their minds, the big "cherry-on-top" was the fact they were...(drum roll/roll eyes)...UNIONIZED!

("So let me get this straight. I can go to work for HALF the salary I make now, pay 10K for an SIC check-out on an aircraft I'm already typed in, and best of all, chip in another percentage for union dues for those that set up this stellar deal? Gee, where do I sign up, Sparky?"). Ya just wanted to pat the them on their head and send them on their way.

Such was, and continues to be, the record of unionized pilots in the corporate arena. To me, it sounds exactly what a SCAB is accused of in the airline world, doesn't it?

The basic truth is this, Cardinal; the poster who you directed your salvo at hasn't the experience (yet) to be competetive for being hired in the Fortune 100 corporate world, and judging by your profile, neither do you. In these unfortunate days however, plenty of out-of-work, former ALPA etc., airline pilots do (in terms of hours). Sadly and ironically, either through sheer ignorance or because they think none of their "bretheren" are looking, many of them now are out there right now in the non-unionized corporate world advertising they will "do it for less". Don't think it's true of your brothers? think again. When I did the hiring at a corporate flight department I saw plenty of them, and those applications that offered to "do it for less" than the industry standard for the type of aircraft we flew were the first one's in the trash can. Frankly, the record of airline pilots negotiating their own wages in the corporate world sucks.

It might be wise to clean up your own house on the issue before making broad-brush statements about a group being "arrogant", given that you've never even been inside their house in the first place. I've been inside yours, however, and it ain't all that tidy on the arrogance front.

 

[CatYaaak]

"I'm poor, I'm poor! I am a dirt poor Teamster! Happy now?"

Not suprising, the same org that represents the largest group of under-compensated frac pilots. Tell me again why union representation is such a be-all/end-all?

"Yet there is a clear means of advancement in pay on the airline side, structured by a network of union contracts."

And at any Fortune 100 flight department, the same clear advancement in pay exists, structured by larger company policy for it's employees. You see, annual raises based on percentage of salary are practically assumed, but represent just a small part of the package that allows any good company retain it's valued personnel. To believe that a union must negotiate such run-of-the-mill policies is a myth perpetuated by those who tell themselves theirs is the only way, because they assume theirs is the only World...one where management and pilots are at each other's throats and looking to screw one another.

A simple truth is this; the act of knowingly ACCEPTING a job for sub-standard wages (that includes union-negotiated ones) in that US vs. Them environment is a loud-and-clear vote for management to see what you think your skills are worth as a professional. Subsequent to sending this self-defeating message, going on to "fight the fight" to achieve mere liveable wages and conditions is nothing more than trying to make-up a never-made bed you agreed to sleep in. To "win" in that environment is more paying a penance for your own mistake than achieving a victory.

Now, if you want to believe the unionist line that the union-negotiated-and-agree-to, cow-pie compensation airline management flopped out (remember, you eagerly accepted it with both hands when you succeeded in entering the regionals' pasture) will quit stinking to high heaven because they'll fight to poke a few daisies in it, that's your affair. But please don't try to convince the rest of us that waving a union card and spouting union rhetoric equates to possessing magic wand and spellbook that can transform the daisy-adorned dung into a friggin' bouquet of flowers.

"There's no meaningful debate here, just flames about my total time. Ya know, when I first referred to the "arrogant anti-unionists" I was half kidding. Now I'm beginning to wonder, cause that shoe surely fits these last posts.

"

Spare us the persecution complex. If you publicly label a person or group "arrogant" (a detrimental term) simply because they don't share your view, then expect a response. From what I see, however, you have no interest in "meaningful debate". "Debate", you see, implies that persuation is possible through the use of logic, but it's clear your union has you programmed.