The glory days are over - What do you think?

[wrxpilot]

quote:
"Oddly enough many pilots here think the professional world involves a 2 hr lunch everyday, a 30 hr work week, and $200k/yr. I don't know where they get this crap, it is as bad as the BS you hear coming out of the big FL schools regarding flying for the airlines."


Gotta call BS on this one. I have yet to see anybody here say anything close to that.

I exaggerated a little bit, but not much. This kind of attitude - the everybody outside of aviation is better off one - comes up all the time. Just check out the nursing thread, or anyone of the other similar threads. All the time some person is lamenting how they miss being home, wish they would've gone into nursing/engineering/law/ditch digging or whatever. It's ridiculous. There is no magic job out there from what I've seen. You just have to do what you like and also have a life outside of work.

PurpleInMEM doesn't even want to work at all, so how's he ever going to be happy doing anything (besides winning the lottery)?

 

[wrxpilot]

quote:
"Oddly enough many pilots here think the professional world involves a 2 hr lunch everyday, a 30 hr work week, and $200k/yr. I don't know where they get this crap, it is as bad as the BS you hear coming out of the big FL schools regarding flying for the airlines."


Gotta call BS on this one. I have yet to see anybody here say anything close to that.

Argh, double post again. Sorry.

 

[Way2Broke]

quote:
"Oddly enough many pilots here think the professional world involves a 2 hr lunch everyday, a 30 hr work week, and $200k/yr. I don't know where they get this crap, it is as bad as the BS you hear coming out of the big FL schools regarding flying for the airlines."


Gotta call BS on this one. I have yet to see anybody here say anything close to that.

I'll say it. I know some professionals (Not all of them) that make great money and really don't seem to do diddly squat. Realitors, Mortgage Brokers, Lawyers, etc. etc. While SOME of them worked their butts off in school to get there others really just fell into it. I for one continue to be WAY2BROKE. I know of more than one pilot currently LIVING IN A TENT or RV, or worse AT HOME (Thank god I found a hot sugar momma!). What other profession would someone go through all the steps to become a part of to be rewarded with 18k a year or less? NAME ME ONE that requires an education of any type that pays anywhere close to that (And I'm not talking SEARS TIRE COLLEGE, or SUBWAY'S SANDWICH ARTIST's ART SCHOOL)? Lucky for me I love to fly, and did not get into this for the money. I was also luck enough to have a good mentor that did not sugar coat things from the start. I knew what I was getting into, but nothing prepared me for how bad it actually can be if YOU LET IT. Moral of the store, don't whore yourself out. If you do you'll just get treated like a whore, and make it more difficult for the next guy or gal to survive.

And as for the article, it may seem a bit extreme but it has to be to help counteract all the fancy 2 page glossy ads for all the ab intro flight schools. You have to fight fire with fire! Delta Conection Academy, Riddle, PanAm, type schools employee some top dollar experts in the advertising field, its about time someone said something in one of these magazines besides this is the best thing since sliced bread. (advertising execs, another example of a caerer that pays well and has some people in it that have never worked a day in their life)

Whoo... Sorry I didn't mean to start on a rant like that. But there you have it! Someone had to bite, figured I'd play devil's advocate! Sorry for hijacking the thread too. I'm sure I probably offended some people with this post, but it is my opinion. Take it as just that, AN OPINION. Oh and one more thing, I am not saying that pilots are the hardest working people in the world either. I'm just saying that they put up with more crap for less, but I blame the pilots (and the unions) for that. We are all in this together and if we acted like that more often alot of things that people complain about would get better real quick!

 

[wrxpilot]

And as for the article, it may seem a bit extreme but it has to be to help counteract all the fancy 2 page glossy ads for all the ab intro flight schools. You have to fight fire with fire! Delta Conection Academy, Riddle, PanAm, type schools employee some top dollar experts in the advertising field, its about time someone said something in one of these magazines besides this is the best thing since sliced bread. (advertising execs, another example of a caerer that pays well and has some people in it that have never worked a day in their life)

W2B,

My mentor/CFI/family member has also been great about not glossing over the decline in quality and potentially tough life of aviation. And he has what would probably be considered to be a "dream job" in aviation. So I certainly don't have any qualms with what you're saying and agree that Barry Schiff's article provided good balance to the glossy SJS ads.

I'm not saying there aren't some professionals out there with a great QOL and pay either. There's some in aviation too. But there's crappy situations in both worlds. I hope I maintain your realistic but enjoyable outlook as I progress!

 

[Lear Wanna Be]

How about a spear gun and a hammer?

Yeah, that is what I was thinking. I assume you refer to that Flying Tiger/FedEx guy that went psycho because he was about to get fired. That event could have been the postal of all postals if it were not for the desire to live of the guys up front.

Wrxpilot and pilotyip, I am with you guys. Being a pilot is certainly not a bad job. It does seem that so many people talk about other great careers, but when it comes down to it, they are not without their own pros and cons. Also, it is kind of like how people that are not in aviation talk about pilots who make $400K a year. How many of those guys do you know? People just talk about the high end elite few and run with it. Besides, I don't ever have to take work home with me. Yeah, I might study up for a 6 month check, new systems, or something on my own time, but I could just as well find time to do that on a layover. I mean, when is the last time you ever heard of a pilot being referred to as a workaholic?

Then you get the recent thread about Pinnacle Air Services (135 company). How the Captains are making $80K a year when it is all said and done and they are working a 15/15 schedule. They all think the pay is too low. Perhaps it is, get what you can get guys. All I know is that I bust my hump flying 900+ hours a year in something non-turbine non-pressurized for just a little more than that. All I get to see is beautiful places like Detroit City, Willow Run, Kansas City, El Paso, Laredo, and a few other unmentionables. Sure would be nice to get a trip to Aspen, Vegas, Naples, or the Bahamas. It would also be nice to get 2 weeks vacation a month like those guys.

Moral of the story, life is not that bad. Unless you are driving an RJ for the other Pinnacle.

 

[Rob P.]

I laugh in frustration whenever I read things like this. People crying because they can't seem to do anything but barely survive on a $30K/yr salary. What a JOKE!

There are people out there raising families on less than HALF that and you don't see them moaning and groaning about how terrible their employment fields are. Engineering jobs that "only pay" $60K? Get real folks.

I grew up in a household of 3 kids that never earned more than 12 thousand per year in GROSS income. I survived and learned the value of a dollar. and it wasn't all that long ago either.

Seems to me most people these days don't even know the cost of a gallon of milk let alone how to save a buck or 2. Instead they only know how to complain that they didn't start off mega rich and then get paid on top of that.

 

[mcjohn]

And as for the article, it may seem a bit extreme but it has to be to help counteract all the fancy 2 page glossy ads for all the ab intro flight schools. You have to fight fire with fire! Delta Conection Academy, Riddle, PanAm, type schools employee some top dollar experts in the advertising field, its about time someone said something in one of these magazines besides this is the best thing since sliced bread. (advertising execs, another example of a caerer that pays well and has some people in it that have never worked a day in their life)

Well put. Reminds to me bump my thread in the training section.

 

[wrxpilot]

Engineering jobs that "only pay" $60K? Get real folks.

You're taking what I said about engineering out of context. The salary quoted was meant as a comparison to the fantasy $150k jobs that are talked about here as if it was the norm. I also came from humble beginnings and paid every dime for my education and living expenses since I was 17. Trust me, I'm very thankful to receive the salary that I do.

 

[lowtimedriver]

The glory days are just starting. It's all a matter of perspective. When I first entered my profession twenty years ago, I think I made $20,000.00 my first year. Twenty years later you can add another zero to this amount. Do your time, do not tire, never give up and most importantly, keep a positive mental attitude.

 

[GogglesPisano]

I grew up in a household of 3 kids that never earned more than 12 thousand per year in GROSS income. I survived and learned the value of a dollar. and it wasn't all that long ago either.

.

Sorry, I just don't buy that. Was there gov't assistance involved? Do you fly airplanes for a living now and how did you finance your flight training?

If people want to fly for a living I'm all for it, as long as they realize there's a good chance they will be lower-middle class for a good portion of their lives, when their vollege roomates are buying their second homes and SUV's.

 

[captainv]

it seems like we're all chasing that perfect job. One where we get paid truckloads of money, the job itself is effortless because we love it so, and we have lots of time to enjoy our spoils on our time off. (Then we just need the perfect wife, child, house, car, etc.)

i have an uncle who's a senior ATC controller. Gov't pension and benefits, huge paycheck, a couple years away from age 56 retirement. A lot of us would give our left arm for that, right? maybe not if you talked to him. his schedule's always a mess, his managers are idiots, a lot of FAA vs. union crap going on, old equipment, working too many sectors, rats running around in the facility.... never married, owns enough guns to equip a brigade, lives in AZ but is an expert divemaster. motorcycle nut. deseprate to get married before it's too late.

buddy of mine is a dentist in S. Fla. pretty close to the perfect job. less than 5 years out of school, he bought a practice (the senior dentist sets his own schedule now), the hygenists pretty much do all the messy work, his job is to come poke around for a few minutes and, more improtantly, schmooze with his patients after looking up their personal info on a cheat sheet in the file (so, how's little Bobby like 3rd grade?) huge paycheck, wife and two kids, dog, house w/ dock on intercoastal, goes boating every weekend, ridiculously bored. is this it? he asks when i call him. i can do this in my sleep! thinking about chucking it to focus on oral surgery or maybe teach at a dental school. wife not crazy about that idea.

my brother in law is the CFO for a developer. makes huge $$$, lives in a mansion. late 30s, been giving himself ulcers since high school. stays in a hotel across the street from his office during the week because the kids distract him too much at home. when he's home on weekends, he cleans the entire house. it's how he relaxes. his boss wants him to learn golf so he can help schmooze gov't officials and big clients. this terrifies him and now he can't sleep. his dad (also a workaholic) had a stroke when he was a boy, has been in a home since. his wife wants him to cut back a lot, but he's more stressed when he's not working.

basically every one i know has some variation on this theme. maybe they've got a great job, but there's always a down side. or maybe their work life is perfect, but the home life is a mess. does anyone still want to be a movies star/rock star? or just filthy rich? i've read some interesting stories about lottery winners and how their lives tanked after getting the big check.

i enjoy flying for a living. lots of pros/cons to the job, but that's every job. i could never be a doctor, or an investment banker. i wish i was home more, but the family is pretty solid otherwise. if my airline tanks, i'd probably find something else to do, but i don't spend every day worrying about it. i followed my passion, and it's the passion that helps me get through the rough patches....

 

[Bluestreak]

Barry has it right.We fly more people on more airplanes for less (fares AND wages ) than any other time in history.If nothing else,Capt. Schiff never had to deal with the TSA.

 

[pilotyip]

Nice post Capt5; If you like to fly this a great career, if you don't like to fly, this is probably the worst career you could get into. I will bet anyone, such as myself, who owns an airplane loves this career. If they spend their free time flying old airplanes on the air show circuit, they also probably love this career and still think of themselves being in the glory days. That is my take on your fresh dose of reality. Watch the wave of negative vibes start coming in how you and I have ruined this career.

 

[Rob P.]

Sorry, I just don't buy that. Was there gov't assistance involved?

It's called being the son of an enlisted man in the military . Poor, broke and one half of the homefront is usually living in a tent in a war zone somewhere. And if ANYONE believes that our military is being paid generous wages they need to stop taking whatever halucinogen they're popping. We used to glean the fields afer harvest in order to get enough food to can for the winter. Most enlisted families are on welfare or some such program these days. They get by and raise families on less that what most single people here would sniff at because it's "peanuts".

Wrxpilot, sorry if I misunderstood your post. I just don't understand people these days who can't seem to live on less than a million $/day. Lots of comments about Lawyers and such who everyone seems to believe make the big bucks. Truth is, very few professions pay well and NONE of them pay that well to start. Most lawyers start in the $30k's and work hard to advance from there. Yeah there are a few who make over $100k but that's not the norm. And for those who say "work hard and it'll happen" I have one thing to add to that. Hopefully you'll get lucky and avoid a life disaster. It only takes one little thing and you're financial future is toast. Job injury, divorce, etc and everything you work for is gone and there's little time left to rebuild once you're past 40.

It's the real world and life is not predictable nor easy. You put your head down and make do with what you have and hope for better times.

 

[enigma]

The glory days never existed for anyone but the lucky few. Pre deregulation, working pilots made a lot of cash, but the number of positions was few. Earning the equivilent of a new Caddy every month was great but I'd rather have a job making the equivilent of a new Caddy every four months, than not have a pilot job at all.

It's all a matter of your perspective, and my perspective is this: with my non-mil background and less than perfect eyes, I would have never climbed to my current position back in the "glory days".

When I get disgruntled about not yet having a grasp on the pot of gold, I try to remind myself that I make more than three times the income of the average american family. That ain't chump change friends.

Now, If I could just get over my dislike of stupid governmental security procedures, and crew sceduling, I'd be all right.

 

[pilotyip]

Love the tractor, enigma. You seem to be saying you like your job, that is nice touch on this board. The reality is; this is still a great job without the glory days for those who like to fly airplanes.

 

[Spooky 2]

I think what Schiff was saying or trying so say it that it’s unlikely we will see the glory days of airlines like Pan Am or TWA again in the future. These were airlines where there appeared to be no limit to the future and opportunities for advancement into what most pilots aspired to, big airplanes, big pay checks and pretty awesome working conditions. If you were hired in 1964 at either of these two airlines, you were a made man. Within a year you were flying international at TWA, and of course Pan Am had nothing but international in 1964. The pay was great and there appeared to be little if any ceiling on your rise to the top. Trips were great. Take TWA’s around the world flight in those days. Eleven days westbound and twelve days east bound. If you were flying this trip on an annual basis you only needed to work ten trips a year and you were done for the year.

Numerous opportunities for engaging the ladies that were on trips in those days. They typically were not married, younger than thirty and did no weigh in at 180lbs. A true definition of a target rich environment. Layover in Paris, Tahiti, Sydney made for some great destinations.

So when Schiff says that these days are over, I suspect that he is on target. If there is something out there that looks like this I have not seen it yet. Certainly not flying for Fed Ex or UPS. As good as theses jobs are, I don’t think they can hold a candle to the past experiences.

Would I discourage anyone from becoming an airline pilot today? No, but I sure would not expect anything like in the past.

Being an airline pilot is not just about the paycheck, but the over all journey through ones life. It was a great ride once upon a time but your not likely to see anything resembling this in the near future, if ever again.

 

[captainv]

spooky,

i don't disagree with you. but what job is like it was 40 years ago? for the average worker, gone are the days of a career at one company, a gold watch and a pension for your golden years.

plus, where's the common sense? how long can an airline stay afloat paying six figures for a pilot to work a third of the month? maybe that works when the airlines were regulated, but not now...

 

[flyboyike]

I think what Capt Schiff is trying to do (albeit in a roundabout way) is to discourage what I call glamour pilots from coming into the industry. You know the ones I mean, people who are in it for the uniform and for the leather jacket. And maybe, like someone else pointed out, his article will provide a much needed counterweight to all the super-glossy ads in the same magazine.

 

[tracearabians]

I agree ! Never again !

I think what Schiff was saying or trying so say it that it’s unlikely we will see the glory days of airlines like Pan Am or TWA again in the future. These were airlines where there appeared to be no limit to the future and opportunities for advancement into what most pilots aspired to, big airplanes, big pay checks and pretty awesome working conditions. If you were hired in 1964 at either of these two airlines, you were a made man. Within a year you were flying international at TWA, and of course Pan Am had nothing but international in 1964. The pay was great and there appeared to be little if any ceiling on your rise to the top. Trips were great. Take TWA’s around the world flight in those days. Eleven days westbound and twelve days east bound. If you were flying this trip on an annual basis you only needed to work ten trips a year and you were done for the year.

Numerous opportunities for engaging the ladies that were on trips in those days. They typically were not married, younger than thirty and did no weigh in at 180lbs. A true definition of a target rich environment. Layover in Paris, Tahiti, Sydney made for some great destinations.

So when Schiff says that these days are over, I suspect that he is on target. If there is something out there that looks like this I have not seen it yet. Certainly not flying for Fed Ex or UPS. As good as theses jobs are, I don’t think they can hold a candle to the past experiences.

Would I discourage anyone from becoming an airline pilot today? No, but I sure would not expect anything like in the past.

Being an airline pilot is not just about the paycheck, but the over all journey through ones life. It was a great ride once upon a time but your not likely to see anything resembling this in the near future, if ever again.

 

[wrxpilot]

The glory days never existed for anyone but the lucky few. Pre deregulation, working pilots made a lot of cash, but the number of positions was few. Earning the equivilent of a new Caddy every month was great but I'd rather have a job making the equivilent of a new Caddy every four months, than not have a pilot job at all.

Enigma,

Very good point. Apparently a lot of people here don't know their airline history that well. Ever read "Fate is the Hunter" by Ernest Gann? The professional pilot's life was a dangerous one filled with financial uncertainty.

My Grandfather flew for TWA back in the OLD days, but bailed to work as a salesman due to QOL issues (but still remained close to GA).

Would've been great to be part of the '60s/'70s airline life, but like Enigma some of us wouldn't have stood a chance because of corrected vision.

 

[FN FAL]

I think what Capt Schiff is trying to do (albeit in a roundabout way) is to discourage what I call glamour pilots from coming into the industry. You know the ones I mean, people who are in it for the uniform and for the leather jacket.

The people who work at the Ray Ban factory have to put beans and biscuits on their tables too.

 

[Flyerjosh]

It's called being the son of an enlisted man in the military . Poor, broke and one half of the homefront is usually living in a tent in a war zone somewhere. And if ANYONE believes that our military is being paid generous wages they need to stop taking whatever halucinogen they're popping.

I made more money on active duty (stateside) as an enlisted soldier than I did as a 3rd year Regional Jet FO when my reserve unit was deployed. That should say something.

Keep in mind too that most military enlistees don't have 40-70K in student loans to pay off, and if they're enlisted the housing benefits are pretty decent. Don't get me wrong, I think they're still paid crap for the job they do, but overall, a lot of the costs you have as a civilian may not be applicable to an active duty enlisted soldier.